[00:38:23] https://imgur.com/7b6gItB [00:38:24] https://i.imgur.com/7b6gItB.jpg [00:51:50] Mun? [00:52:02] oren: [01:14:10] yeah [01:14:18] Tourism mission to the mun [01:49:23] mmm.. hover cars... sorta [03:52:32] https://imgur.com/m3iGivo [03:52:32] https://i.imgur.com/m3iGivo.png [04:01:02] great ball of fire! [04:01:49] what heppens if I run out of ablator [04:02:55] boom! [04:04:34] hmm... apparently not [04:05:02] what's the temperature limit of a heat shield with 0 ablator? [04:05:30] https://imgur.com/Pzj53UC [04:05:30] https://i.imgur.com/Pzj53UC.png [04:09:54] oh hey I never noticed that! a heat shield with no ablator is black instead of brown! [04:10:17] https://imgur.com/ESCpO7K [04:10:18] https://i.imgur.com/ESCpO7K.jpg [05:09:11] ISS UTL: 58% [05:37:14] what angle of attack is ideal for wings in stock KSP [05:37:35] very small [05:43:00] https://imgur.com/8sxICEp [05:43:01] https://i.imgur.com/8sxICEp.jpg [05:43:27] this thing needs like 10 degrees to maintain high altitude [05:43:58] never had that high [05:44:35] for low twr sstos it is critical, because you have to have the smallest drag possible to break the sound barrier [05:45:11] which means it has to fly with nose in the same direction as the velocity vector, and wing having the smallest angle that does this [05:52:17] aha [07:00:52] indian launch in 9.5 hours [07:28:06] ok, lowlands, highlands, twin craters [07:33:26] the beagle has landed [07:34:07] hehe [07:34:28] and didnt unfold the last solar panel to free the antenna [07:48:31] however, even after several hops and consulting my map, I couldn't find the lowlands [07:48:59] I'll need to try again after refueling at the mothership [07:49:04] theres probably somewhere where biome border itself is lowlands lol [07:49:10] mothership. drives offline [07:49:32] unless they fixed the biome map [07:49:37] too bad you cant use the biome compression artifacts to reach far away bimes at the borders easily [07:50:20] sti,, the mun has lowlands [07:51:35] airless lowlands biome. makes sense [07:51:44] I re-installed my most important games [07:51:53] time for the others I guess [07:52:45] i found out that the law around drones here are so bad that it is basically impossible to fly a drone legally [07:53:05] just say it is not [07:53:18] because that word has a very loose meaning [07:53:24] I mean it's pretty hard to fly male bees [07:53:30] hehe [07:53:43] or borgs [07:54:27] isnt drones all female [07:54:33] no, workers are [07:54:35] drones are male [07:54:41] ahh [07:56:11] basically you have to acquire a permit for the given area 30 days before the flight for around the equivalent of 9 euros, and then activate it 30 minutes before the flight and deactivate it after the flight [07:56:43] because when this law was created there were no drones [07:58:12] fun [07:58:28] its one of reasons superman will be unable to fly, even to help [07:58:33] hehe [07:58:47] rescue helicopters can fly somehow [07:58:54] so i think it is not impossible [07:59:03] "thanks for saving us from that suoerdoomy spider! Unfortunately here is flight traffic violation ticket." [07:59:28] what i would do just restrict areas and altitudes, so not around airpoprts and below some altitude you are free to do whatever [07:59:32] I would fly stright upwards into space [07:59:35] no planes in space. [07:59:43] essentally no regulations also [07:59:48] actually... [07:59:51] there are [08:00:00] at least while you are in the atmosphere [08:00:09] and then there is the issue with space debris [08:00:17] you have to plan carefully to not be hit [08:00:24] not when superman lol [08:00:37] though yeah some of "derbis" is actual working sats [08:01:04] space debris hits him and fractures to smaller debris. superman causes kessler syndrome. kill on sight [08:01:25] honestly I'd ask and get licensing, and I take no action without goverment asking [08:01:32] that way I stay out of libilities [08:01:47] meanwhile I get profit orbiting stuff for companies [08:01:57] and get money from goverment for clearing junk out [08:02:31] for example in nanoha strikers, you can see fate park her car then ask for a take off permission before flying [08:03:29] that is the way to do it [08:03:31] is that comic or tv or what [08:05:30] a bunch of laws are stupid and pointless anyways [08:05:45] today laws jsut cant adapt fast enough [08:05:49] Althego: heh, true [08:06:00] I live by "don't be a moron" [08:06:04] good example is that fax is still accepted as official document [08:06:09] yet changing laws too easy means could make really bad mistakes [08:06:09] who uses fax anyway [08:06:25] which is basically the first line of the french treaty of human rights from back then [08:06:53] i thought that rule is dont be a d... richard :) [08:07:05] yeah basically [08:07:58] I love how orbital speed on minmus is slower than typical plane speed on kerbin [08:08:17] is one planet still impossible to orbit it? [08:08:30] I remembered there was one world that had strange physics [08:08:53] i orbited everything [08:09:01] nothing strange [08:09:14] there is a mod planet that is weird [08:17:46] https://imgur.com/Jd3KKXr the minmus mothership/gas station [08:17:47] https://i.imgur.com/Jd3KKXr.png [08:18:18] wait, you are on minmus? [08:18:26] i think that has onlt flats, no lowlands [08:18:43] but the twin craters are on the mun [08:19:57] Althego: I'm running a near-identical mission on the mun [08:20:26] with a more powerful lander tho [08:20:30] wait it might be one of PLANET orbits around star that was physics impossible? [08:23:22] how can an orbit be physics impossible? [08:23:28] unless, the soi is too small [08:23:50] for example planet orbiting speed being far too slow for its motion [08:23:51] Althego: period not matching what it should be for the masses of the objects? [08:24:02] *orbit [08:24:18] but that is literally impossible :) [08:24:37] not in ksp [08:24:52] planets is in script not physics sim [08:25:03] so you could define it in very strange ways [08:25:36] yes planets are on rails [08:26:48] that would mean the planet cant orbit how it does. but it wouldnt mean you cant orbit the planet [08:26:49] http://i.magaimg.net/img/psf.jpg lol [08:27:11] yeah I think one of planets were bugged like that but I guess it was fixed long while ago [08:27:24] lol [08:27:33] https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/161721-indev13-kiss-kerbal-impossible-solar-system-may-i-use-your-planet-models/ [08:27:37] well, the moons of jool are not stable where they are [08:27:39] mod that adds lots lots planets [08:27:55] one of em is moon to mun [08:28:08] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+v erio' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [08:28:13] http://i.magaimg.net/img/psg.jpg [08:28:19] because the inner moons were put in an 1 2 4 resonance, but they are too close and call is ejected [08:28:43] if you run a real gravity simulation [08:28:48] *vall [08:28:50] interesting [09:27:47] https://78.media.tumblr.com/bc18272e539100e6199b94a750d31a25/tumblr_inline_omo6gxZl3h1tu9u6o_540.jpg [09:31:28] I want this https://78.media.tumblr.com/79aa38cbdb5208ecb84c22d3fe06a674/tumblr_inline_para1tx6jP1t00g2u_540.gif [09:31:58] Oh hey it's snitch bird! [09:43:26] spherical animal [09:44:32] maximum volume to surface area ratio [09:47:20] Hmm, my megalauncher still splashed down too hard but at least the payload was put into a full orbit [09:54:01] https://78.media.tumblr.com/b02fda63b8d6422de186e140dd1df089/tumblr_nf5fmqtrvm1r5uv3zo1_500.jpg [09:58:54] https://78.media.tumblr.com/9ba5259a58ea710b53ae60a25e0e29c7/tumblr_peyn270Ecq1rte5gyo1_500.gif [10:01:17] the memes about murika getting a hurricane again are rather funny [10:01:17] https://78.media.tumblr.com/dcad1fab12f6dd067950314126e60160/tumblr_pexoolzr5h1su5pq5_1280.jpg [10:02:29] I dont find that very funny, sadly [10:02:53] because certain someone will just get more paper towels, throw em and leave, and do crap assistance [10:02:54] they got to the point where they are just like "average monday" by now [10:04:51] lmao https://78.media.tumblr.com/b198d2c8b94fe0a465cea6224964e5ed/tumblr_o5wsvnm2me1si144oo1_540.jpg [10:19:22] ok i selected the boxes that have been piling up for years to throw away. of course i cant do that because the selective is full. as always. i am not going to put them back. so i have to keep them around until monday [10:20:49] I want water puppy https://78.media.tumblr.com/7bacb01e6bb73a47e7d3235741f824a6/tumblr_n5s2ynW9sP1rc7zl1o4_400.gif [10:22:16] bleh [10:23:07] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o APlayer' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [10:27:52] https://78.media.tumblr.com/921514acc498bcc0a6349ba73ee17384/tumblr_p84jc1GBmG1wps8a8o1_540.jpg [10:34:44] supercat [10:35:02] i am sure without a permit to fly [10:37:00] yep. good thing or there'd be no more birds [10:37:22] or considering cat love for heat, it would probably go to lava and lay on it. [10:38:06] lol [10:38:19] sail cat [10:38:35] you can literally walk in liquid lava. assuming you dont burn to crisp of course [10:38:45] its just a little bit less dense than rock [10:38:47] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBNGGBjZBW4 [10:38:48] YouTube - Sailcat [10:40:01] :P [10:40:28] oh wait it doesnt have subtitles [10:40:29] eh [10:40:42] eh never liked that show. [10:42:12] https://78.media.tumblr.com/1f288c11546c03d2c0754fb0acf25793/tumblr_peohzciB4g1r539hzo1_400.gif [10:44:20] Never forget that we live in a world where "Pizza the Hutt" is a thing. [10:46:30] yeah [10:46:56] thousands of years later humans will not know much of this era, besides pizza the hutt that is [10:47:04] hehe [11:34:11] Hello [11:35:20] i have a problem with the making histoy expansion. I cant install it becous it tells me i need the 1.4.5 version... but i have it allready. How do i solve the problem? [11:36:42] havent seen that error yet. are you sure it is 1.4.5? [11:37:15] probably gets this from the buildID64.txt [11:38:20] yes i have the 64 build [11:38:34] im sure i have 1.4.5 [12:07:49] as a test i would install the game in a new directory and try to install the expansion there [12:08:34] because probably there is something wrong with the game or the expansion installer so it thinks they are not compatible [12:47:38] i will reinstall it [12:50:00] it works thanks [14:56:38] Oh my, I had a flawed Mun sample return mission. I forgot the sample :). [14:56:44] lol [14:56:57] and i actually laughed because of this [14:57:03] I did plant a flag, so proof of concept holds :). [15:02:05] And it was quite tedious, too. I'm playing with the free demo. Didn't want to make too ugly rockets so I was short on fuel (as usual :). Not enough fuel to land. EVA, landed with jetpack. Not enough fuel to get back to orbit. Sent a rocket (ofc not enough fuel to land), so it picked Jeb up from suborbital trajectory (tedious). Not enough fuel to get back to orbit, so EVA to orbit, but not enough [15:02:05] to land on Kerbin. So a third rocket to pick up Jeb from large Kerbin orbit. Hmm, no chute (there wasn't a good place, had command pod and Stayputnik). So deorbit with EVA. And then, no surface sample :). [15:04:15] If you need a challenge, pick someone up from a suborbital trajectory. [15:14:24] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o APlayer' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [15:47:16] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKAc7ZlTUDE [15:47:16] YouTube - PSLV-C42 / -NovaSAR & S1-4 - Launch Live Telecast [15:48:05] *dramatic music plays on live stream* [15:48:14] Best live stream I saw, so far [15:48:15] :P [15:48:18] hehe [15:48:29] the timer didnt hit 0 when the music started [15:48:47] so technically this isnt the stream yet [15:49:13] Hey, planning to build a munar base, location is important in terms of Ore and elevation right ? Can ore run out ? [15:49:29] no [15:49:44] but efficiency depends on local ore concentration [15:49:55] or rather it can run out on asteroids [15:50:58] note that the polar mapping thing only gives biome average on the map, local concentration may be lot lower or higher [15:51:20] Ragnaman: Consider elevation, ore, latitude for takeoff/landing maneuvers, sunlight hours, shadow hours. If you're the aesthetic type, pick the longitude so that Kerbin is visible over the horizon, you won't regret it. :-) [15:51:49] For what Althego said, use a scouting rover to fine tune the location [15:59:30] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o UmbralRaptop' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [16:02:10] and the actual stream started with some silly music [16:04:49] I think dude on the stream plugged the composite video plug bad [16:05:23] who uses that for a digital stream [16:05:42] india apparently [16:05:46] hehe [16:06:02] for a while it was working [16:06:15] this blinking started a bit later [16:06:36] hehe, comment: push the cable [16:08:02] they fixed the blinking, ther goes the sound [16:08:20] maybe the rockeet works better [16:11:34] "Sir, the rocket is not igniting" "Refill the guy's lighter" [16:13:34] Althego: IIRC the polar mapper gives a rough color intensity map for ore concentrations. You can select from which level it shall print colors. [16:13:47] yes, but it gives biome average [16:14:02] ahh, that, too. [16:34:57] hehehe, take that flat earth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4av1CD8smII [16:34:57] YouTube - What does the Sun do at the South Pole? A 5 day time-lapse - 8th to 13th March 2017 [16:37:43] 2 minutes until launch [16:40:36] cant see anything because of the clouds [16:49:27] hmm it has 4 stage [17:33:55] 300, 900, hmm [17:52:20] @APlayer, well, i understand that the best takeoff in most cases is equator right ? I am not sure i understand having Kerbin on horizon, are the moons tidally locked to Kerbin ? [17:53:35] Hmm, i guess building on poles of moons would have Kerbin in visibility most of the time, was that how you meant it ? [17:54:16] poles are not recommended. because of the way mapping is done in the game it is full of high altitude diufferences [17:54:36] yeah, ive seen that on the Mun, not a happy place [17:54:36] Takeoff is usually best on the equator, yes, but the Mun spins so slowly that the velocity you gain from that is negligible. However, the latitude matters in terms of orbital maneuvers later on: From the Mun poles, you cannot easily get into an equatorial orbit, for example. However, you can easily get into a polar orbit. [17:54:41] visibility was suggested because it looks good [17:55:21] Kerbin visibility is a purely aesthetical preference of mine. You can do it, but you don't have to - it just looks good, as Althego put it. [17:55:56] Finally, the poles might not be such a bad place - if you find a nice elevation, you can power your base from solar panels at all times. [17:56:10] I am all for good looks, but i dont understand one thing, if moons are not tidally locked the Kerbin would not be visible at all times right ? [17:56:26] The Mun is tidally locked to Kerbin. Minmus is not. [17:56:38] huh...didnt know that, makes things interesting [17:56:45] not too visible from minmus anyway [17:58:09] Making bases on mun or minmus makes sense in the long term right ? As means of refuel stations for large craft that are bound for other planets ? [17:58:44] you can collect most science nodes from kerbin soi even in hard mode [17:58:48] I'd rather consider Minmus for refuel missions, TBH. Mun bases are much better suited as checkpoints for contracts related to the Mun [17:59:16] Minmus is much easier to land and take off from. Can ship fuel from the surface to orbit easily. [17:59:30] smaller gravity, smooth flats [17:59:36] ^ [17:59:49] Also, Minmus is awesome for large ore rovers. [18:00:25] Action: APlayer is doing other stuff now [18:00:25] is there any ideal height for orbital stations ? [18:00:26] Highlight me if anything is needed [18:00:40] I'd choose as low as possible for orbital stations [18:00:49] or just the average height one usually gets into orbit ? [18:01:54] You can land and take off rather cheaply from a low orbit [18:02:05] If "cheaply" is English [18:02:27] You can find an 'ideal' (lowest ”V to enter/exit) circular orbit given assumptions about where you're going to/coming from. [18:02:32] Right, makes sense, i was worried about velocity of a low orbiting space station, but i guess it does not matter once you are in vacuum [18:03:18] dV is closely linked to energy. A lower orbit has less energy - even if you take into account the increased velocity. And less energy means less dV. [18:04:05] that explanation makes everything seem more simple [18:04:39] What UmbralRaptop mentioned are gateway orbits. Assuming you want to eventually leave the Mun orbit and head to Kerbin (or somewhere else), there is a balance between already added orbital energy and the loss of the oberth effect. At some specific altitude, depending on where you want to go, there is an optimum balance [18:06:06] sounds like next level of orbital mechanics layer I've yet to "have-need-to-experience" [18:06:58] If you want to refuel things in this orbit and have a frequent route, it might make sense to have a station at the gateway's altitude for this route. That way, you ship fuel there, and can depart and arrive with minimal delta v. That station is like a checkpoint that is cheap to reach from both sides. Otherwise, gateway orbits are more expensive than taking maximum advantage of the oberth effect and travelling [18:06:59] directly. [18:07:32] oh, the gateway would be an orbit that is at the maximum before the orbit is lost ? [18:07:41] No, not quite [18:07:53] It tends to be at an intermediate altitude. [18:07:56] Are you familiar with the oberth effect? [18:08:27] nope, last thing i learned was hohmann transfer, uhhh i consider that as my orbital mechanics highest knowledge (aside from rendezvous) :D [18:08:51] i mean i can wiki that thing [18:10:04] ah, its like gravitational assist but with added thrust at periapsis ? [18:13:27] The oberth effect is rather simple to apply, given that it can be formulated as a rule of thumb: A maneuver is more efficient, the faster you are moving when you perform it. That is because kinetic energy depends on velocity squared: E = 1/2 * m * v^2. Consider a craft of 2 kg, moving at 10 m/s and performing a maneuver of 1 m/s: E goes from 1/2 * 2 * 10^2 = 100 J to 1/2 * 2 * 11^2 = 121 J. Now consider that [18:13:27] same maneuver, but at a velocity of 20 m/s: E goes from 1/2 * 2 * 20^2 = 400 J to 1/2 * 2 * 21^2 J = 441 J. That is a gain of 41 J (vs. 21 J when moving slower) [18:14:14] You don't do the math every time, of course - just know that the faster you already are, the more energy you get from your maneuver. And you generally move fastest at the periapsis, so you do your maneuvers there, if possible [18:15:17] One exception: Oberth effect does /not/ apply to inclination changes. Because then, you don't add velocity, as we did in the equations above. Plane changes are maneuvers perpendicular to your velocity, and thus they work differently. [18:16:57] Ok, i guess i start to understand, One can justify a high altitude refuel station in a case where vessel would enter mun orbit to rendezvous, and then decelerate to get a low periapsis to use it to accelerate ? [18:17:04] am i getting it ? [18:18:04] low orbit refuel station would be worse in this case because one would have to spend energy of incoming high orbit vessel ? + one does not gain the slingshot effect from lower orbit ? [18:19:21] Thus having 2 stations makes sense, low orbit station that collects fuel that gets transported to higher orbit station with a dedicated vessel. High orbit station refuels and is at a high orbit, allowing for Oberth effect. [18:19:41] Now, generally (because of the Oberth effect), if you go, say from the Mun to Kerbin, you want to start at an orbit as low as possible, because then you are fast. But if you refuel or assemble things or something similar, that gets way more complex and the oberth effect does not quite apply the same way. We assume you just spawn your ship in any orbit you pick - now we want to find the orbit from which you can [18:19:41] move to your destination for the least delta V. If you only consider the oberth effect, that's the lowest orbit. However, a higher orbit already has some extra energy. If you only consider this, you get the highest orbit, at the edge of the SOI. But if you consider both factors, then it is a balance, and is somewhere in the middle [18:19:51] Or all this can be done with just one station somewhere inbetween [18:21:42] Guess I will understand when i play with this, but good to know that all this matters. [18:22:36] If you use one station at low altitude to have landers that collect fuel, then you minimize your lander's delta V. Then you can have ferries shipping the fuel to the station in a gateway orbit, which is where ships arrive to refuel, and leave the Mun again. That might be a cheaper approach than to just refuel at the gateway orbit (and also collect fuel from landers there), or than to spend energy every time [18:22:37] because you move down to a low orbit station. However, consider the extra cost of maintaining not one but two stations [18:23:34] Another potential benefit might be science, as you'd have a station in low orbit, and another one in high orbit. [18:25:27] Ok, thanks a bunch [18:37:54] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o Deddly' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [18:49:25] map of laythe! [18:49:27] https://imgur.com/0g5B7fd [18:49:28] https://i.imgur.com/0g5B7fd.jpg [18:49:51] kepp them coming [18:50:05] hehe degrasse sea [18:56:11] Nice. Is that a biome map? [19:07:36] Deddly: yeah [19:08:27] Useful [19:09:21] Deddly: https://imgur.com/a/0JShP7W [19:09:27] here;s the whole series so far [19:10:22] Oh wow, that's really nice, oren. Did you make these? [19:11:12] Deddly: yeah, using the scansat plugin and inkscape [19:11:23] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o UmbralRaptor' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [19:11:33] Cool. Do you have a forum post with these in somewhere? [19:11:39] is ike above the ike above point? [19:12:04] yeah [19:12:07] why are the last two twice? [19:12:29] Althego: probably a bug in imgur interface [19:12:50] Althego: I only see them once [19:12:50] Great flats and greater flats... are they the same? [19:12:55] Deddly: no [19:12:57] no [19:13:10] there are something like 4 flats on minmus [19:13:15] maybe 5? [19:13:27] flats, lesser flats, great flats, greater flats [19:13:39] Huh, I never noticed that great/greater were different [19:13:40] really annoying [19:14:13] there's 4 types of flats [19:14:41] i callected info from all biomes on minmus enough times to curse all these flat types [19:15:39] I made the minmus map first and the mun map, mostly because the biomes are so samey [19:16:38] i never went to the poles of eve [19:16:50] it is crazy enough to take off from the equator [19:17:03] hmm... [19:17:03] is there ice there? [19:17:06] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o UmbralRaptop' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [19:17:10] probably not [19:17:21] at least it doesnt look like that from orbit [19:17:31] Sons and daughters of Kerbin: The revolution will not be canceled unti later this month. [19:17:49] i didnt know there was a revolution [19:17:53] except that of earth [19:18:24] Althego: El Presidente's standing with the capitalist and communist factions has fallen after choosing the wrong traits. [19:18:43] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o UmbralRaptor' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [19:18:49] Laythe... got an idea for an island thats a ring there.. [19:18:50] The simultaneous construction of a Soviet and American base on Tropico did not help. [19:20:08] And it seems that, in my absence, the BFS has gone through another revision. [19:20:27] yes [19:20:32] Action: Scolar_Visari mutter something about not needing landing legs and now using bigger wings that now function as landing legs. [19:20:35] there will be soem kind of anouncement on monday [19:20:39] at least scott said that [19:21:01] Althego: The singular passenger on the Lunar flyby, should the thing ever into space. [19:21:12] but it used to be 2 people [19:21:16] Now it's one. [19:21:22] The other one was strangled to death. [19:21:38] less mass :) [19:21:41] because of delta v :) [19:22:17] that person will be the one most alone in history then [19:22:39] Psht, I'm pretty sure the guy from The Fountain was more lonely. [19:22:53] Will BFS end up looking like the X-34? [19:22:54] even more alone when the apollo command module went around the moon with its lone passenger [19:22:58] .... single passenger to the moon. Isolation much? [19:23:00] UmbralRaptor: It looks like something from the 50s [19:23:14] yes with those wings [19:23:18] it is like a 50s scifi rocket [19:23:21] I was hoping to do a video in KSP of single pilot around the moon but in small spacecraft [19:23:37] UmbralRaptor: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnA7hZgU8AAxfxC.jpg [19:23:50] i wonder what that skirt is [19:23:50] Think Musk's brain still stuck on the 50s? [19:24:17] JVFoxy: I'm . . . not sure where his brain is anymore. [19:24:26] and you all became active when i want to go to bed [19:24:28] Athego someone suggested a skirt for when it takes off again... could be heat sheild [19:25:10] could also have been artistic interpitation [19:25:15] JVFoxy: The BFS functions in reentry similar to historic NASA concepts for Mars descent craft in that half of it's covered in a shield. However, it lands vertically rather than horixontally. [19:25:35] So it's sort of like a spaceplane with really crappy gliding. [19:26:07] was thinking more heat shield from the engines than re-entry [19:26:26] The engine's shouldn't be a problem? [19:26:35] I have questions about the implied passenger layout [19:26:54] 100 people... small space. 6 months.. [19:26:56] There was an extension of the shielding in previous concepts to protect the engines during reentry that's abset now. [19:27:04] thats a lot of supplies and refuse [19:27:27] JVFoxy; Psht, beats out Royal Navy Frigates of the 19th Century. [19:27:58] ya but you on the surface... not having to worry about not breathing [19:28:04] well unless you can't swim [19:28:10] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OislF7OG_BI [19:28:11] YouTube - Why Atlas Is Using Dual Engine Centaur For Starliner [19:28:58] because it is the department of redundancy department [19:29:09] https://imgur.com/KrKcWjm [19:29:09] https://i.imgur.com/KrKcWjm.png [19:29:19] Ike is not so boring after all! [19:29:50] Althego: Because it improves delta-v and thrust, actually. [19:30:13] If the engine goes out on a dual engine Centaur upper stage, you probably will not be taking your CST-100 into space. [19:30:18] Redundancy is part of it, but also because it makes the trajectory shallow enough to have an abort not kill the crew [19:30:35] minmus? [19:30:42] wh no i mena ike [19:30:52] Action: Scolar_Visari notes the Centaur had the dual engine option in mind from the very beginning, but there was no need for it until recently. [19:31:07] Oren who said ike was boring? [19:31:25] Also: Most sailors in the 19th Century could not swim, not that it would've helped. [19:31:26] it is like a ball of ash [19:31:42] Althego: To which Io says, "psht, I was ash before it was cool." [19:31:53] Didn't they say the moon was like a desolate gray haven? [19:32:16] two characters called ash come into mind (misfile and avalon) [19:32:21] "magnificent desolation" [19:32:47] lordcirth: So . . . Kharak? [19:32:55] lordcirth ya thats it [19:33:29] no guidestone there [19:33:35] Would love to visit the moon... for a time. Not sure I'd wanna stay there. [19:33:47] Althego: No, they had the foresight to take it with them before it was reduced to magnificent desolation. [19:34:14] JVFoxy: The Jupiter System's where it's at. Mind the Super Van Allen Belts. [19:34:17] 3 days didn't seem like enough... I know they had plans to land a habitat or a mobile version using to atlas 5s... but the project sorta didn't get the funding [19:35:01] JVFoxy: They did get a lot of scientific data back, though. Habitat landing would've been a Apollo Projects thing using Saturn Vs before the line was canceled prior to 1969. [19:35:37] funny you should say jupiter... friend of mine put out a poll, whats your fav planet. I'd say my fav was Saturn [19:35:51] Jupiter has better contrast in its clouds and, of course, the Volcano Moon. [19:36:02] Titan's not much to look at and terribly far away from Saturn [19:36:27] Action: Scolar_Visari still smarts from the Voyager diversions to Titan instead of Pluto-Charon. [19:36:37] Scolar_Visari ya I was reading up on the extended project ideas. A few ideas involved converting the LEM into a mobile base of sorts. Concerns was over weight considerations [19:37:08] at that time they didnt know there would be several jupiter probes [19:37:11] They got as much out of the LM as was possible at the time. The Rovers' integration was a marvel in and of itself. [19:37:17] Althego: You mean Saturn? [19:37:19] we could have seen pluto lot sooner [19:37:34] I can only assume that SpaceX are having the same bouncy problems with their landing legs that we are having in KSP. So they had to replace them with wing parts [19:37:35] there was a saturn orbiter too [19:37:35] The problem was that Titan's cloud cover was . . . underestimated. [19:37:47] if Voyager did go to Pluto... would the camera even been able to see it? [19:37:57] probably [19:38:02] JVFoxy: Certainly. Same as Neptune. [19:38:39] Voyager, unlike New Horizons, would've also been able to take photographs and transmit information at the same time as its cameras were on motorized mounts instead of static. [19:38:41] I mentioned in friend's poll.. don't hear much back from Neptune or Uranus since the probes [19:38:44] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o UmbralRaptop' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [19:39:38] Last message repeated 1 time(s). [19:39:38] i really want to see ice moon orbiters [19:39:53] but there is not much momentum regarding these [19:40:02] at best we would get one [19:40:18] and as time passes orbits become less favorable [19:40:22] I wouldn't mind seeing an orbital based launch platform for space probes [19:40:46] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o UmbralRaptor' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [19:40:49] ISS already launches stuff but it only stays in LOE [19:40:52] *LEO [19:41:05] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o UmbralRaptop' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [19:42:12] JVFoxy: Its orbital inclination is less than ideal for anything else. [19:42:35] Althego: A shame, too, given Neptune's interesting meteorology. [19:42:44] yes, those fast winds [19:43:07] And temporary super storm systems ala the Dark Spot. [19:45:27] JVFoxy: Back when it was Space Station Freedom, there were numerous technical proposals for launching deep space vehicles from the station when its inclination was more favorable. [19:46:09] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o UmbralRaptor' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [19:46:12] I may be inclined, but at least I can see it from home, (above 49deg) [19:46:36] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o UmbralRaptop' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [19:46:47] it may not be ideal... just means having to work timing into things. Moon isn't exactly on an ideal path either in relation to launch sites down ehre [19:47:41] It's not simply a matter of timing, as it also means higher delta-v missions. [19:47:58] To be blunt, the Freedom proposals weren't terribly strong, either. [19:49:11] Setting it up so you can launch deep space anything from a space station requires a huuuge investment, and I can't see how it'd be cost effective in the short term when you have to ship up everything already [19:49:56] they had to cater to russia's launch site.. which is fine... [19:50:49] always going to be an investment in anything.. [19:51:07] Well it's not simply the launch site: The Soyuz, Progress and Zarya and Zvezda modules had inherently low delta-v for orbital maneuvering. [19:51:22] trouble is.. we spend how much just to get off the surface here alone? [19:51:23] Using them also precluded the need for the U.S. and its partners to develop native counterparts. [19:52:49] eh.. its up there now.. we should just be happy it works [19:53:37] I hate when everyone starts talking so negative about things... oh spaceshuttle is a death trap, good ridden to it.. we should be spending money on surface matters than launching.. :\ [19:53:48] JVfoxy: Launching from the Space Station would not be any more economical than launching from the Earth. [19:54:03] eh.. well not saying we should launch from station... [19:54:45] Heck, any orbital platform would be less than ideal unless you're getting the materials from beyond Earth. [19:55:01] deepspace mission, specially if crewed, not exactly going to be easy launching everything in one go. Going to be some sort of building in orbit [19:56:01] ... at least we got some experiences out of ISS when it comes to building [19:56:19] That doesn't necessarily mean you need a platform for assembly. [19:56:55] Or even EVAs, as the DRA 5.0s pretty much have everything assembled with docking maneuvers. [20:00:38] oren, do you have a forum thread for those biome maps? [20:00:41] In the case of the BFA/BFR architecture, orbital refueling takes place in lieu of assembly, though I'm skeptical of having passengers wait in orbit for subsequent tanker launches with the expectation they'll all be on schedule. [20:02:22] I find it a little crazy they want to send 100 people to mars in one shot already.. we haven't even sent 1 person beyond the moon. [20:02:46] Action: Scolar_Visari ponders if the BFS habitability is less than that of the notoriously uninhabitable Type VII U-Boat. [20:03:26] I find the entire thing entirely too optimistic even if you get rid of the silly first launch dates. [20:03:47] Scolar_Visari maybe they were hoping we would have figured out stasis by the time we are ready... everyone gets frozen for the trip. [20:04:10] Freezing's not likely to happen any time in the near future, though topor states have received serious scientific study. [20:04:49] Though it's less a supply issue and more of SpaceX not having any expertise in designing deep spacecraft of any configuration. [20:05:45] You could certainly fit enough food and water in a proposed BFS for 100 people on a one way trip (even if they end up being glorified MREs). Whether or not their spacecraft works or not is more concerning. [20:05:45] Plus.. unless they have some super tech they've been working on and haven't told anyone yet.. [20:06:23] Just have the crew sleep in the torpedo room, er, food storage closets. [20:06:23] how to bottle enough o2 and other gases for a one way trip for 100 people.. [20:06:38] It's not that hard, you could easily have enough for the trip plus contingencies. [20:06:57] could just eject all that urine out the back... a bit of a boost [20:06:58] Water would be the most mass intensive, though recycling helps with that. [20:07:25] Action: Scolar_Visari helpfully notes a lot of water requirements would be fulfilled from the food brought. [20:07:28] the other waste... maybe if they've green houses crammed somewhere inside [20:08:05] Solid waste would probably just be stored for use on Mars. [20:08:16] Urine would also get recycled as it is already [20:08:25] I'd rather see them do small scale.. work their way up.. Apollo didn't get the moon in one massive ship right from the start [20:09:08] political and war pressures.. sure, that did help push the timeline but it also made them realize something was wrong after one big disastor [20:09:11] Apollo used a different sort of design philosophy. [20:10:02] and Russia used another. There are points in both that worked and didn't [20:10:20] Well having Korolev die certainly did not help, as did the loss of Kruschev. [20:11:23] https://imgur.com/kxqNGDm [20:11:23] https://i.imgur.com/kxqNGDm.png [20:11:36] no but there was other things going on... [20:12:06] space race was something of a two edge sword... it helped push the tech.. but without it, we probably wouldn't have gotten as far as we did [20:12:18] if at all [20:12:26] JVFoxy: Khrushchev was more interested in showing off than anything else. [20:13:25] Meanwhile, on the US side, techs wanted to make the pilot a passenger.. thankfully the astronauts pushed back hard on that idea [20:14:13] I can't say I was much on politics... I know its there, its a big influence. Sometimes I just shake my head at some the stuff that goes on [20:14:15] Korolev wasn't that anti-astronaut, and I think Soyuz's automation teething problems would've been averted had the various design bureau got along better. [20:14:54] "The docking system did not work!" "Nyet, it worked perfectly! You didn't use it correctly!" [20:15:43] well.. as I said, both sides of the pond, had their ups and downs. Now that the race is over, worked together, got the ISS up. There are still some teething issues but.. gotta start somewhere [20:16:01] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o Supernovy' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [20:16:11] Evening, Gentlemen. [20:16:33] A champagne supernovy? [20:17:11] I've been told the bubbly stellar collapse is what's responsible for the creation of all harder liquors. [20:17:12] yo [20:19:28] Action: Scolar_Visari ponders why a new paper on MOND alleges to save it [20:20:22] Scolar_Visari: I remember reading about space find of huge cloud of alchol [20:20:50] I'm surpised one or more beer companies haven't went after it yet [20:20:50] Rolf: The Big Bang created lite beers, after all [20:21:18] geh.. bubbly stuff [20:21:36] sorry.. no offence... seem more into wine myself. ^_^; [20:21:41] Hrm . . . I wonder if the authors of the new paper are the same that sort of ignore MOND's unavoidable issues beyond galactic rotation. [20:22:04] I dont drink alchol at all [20:23:00] Milgrom's not one of the authors. [20:27:21] Amusingly, the paper 'supporting' the non-falsification of MOND uses a galaxy that was included in another paper earlier this year reaffirming the presence of dark matter [20:28:21] ¯\_(Ä)_/¯ [20:29:26] UmbralRaptop: I remain skeptical of modified gravity theories that stick to MOND instead of referring to TESV or some such alternative. [20:30:13] It's like having papers published that refer to the Bohr's model of the atom [20:31:35] Interestingly, it appears the recent detection of gravitational waves have introduced new modified gravity issues. [20:35:46] Sanders, "Does GW170817 falsify MOND?" 2018 doesn't appear to be published in a peer reviewed journal, but it is nonetheless interesting to see where future papers on GW observations may lead. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1805.06804.pdf [20:36:29] Action: Scolar_Visari ponders if the number of MOND astronomers and physicists left is equal to the number of Birds-aren't-dinosaur supporting paleontologists. [20:38:46] Action: UmbralRaptop wonders what the state of the superfluid dark matter idea is. [20:40:12] Metallic. [20:40:44] uh [20:41:31] Actually . . . I think Alan Feduccia and one of his grad students is about all that's left of the Birds-aren't-dinosaur crowd. [20:41:39] The others got old and sort of died. [20:42:53] https://imgur.com/E6TmpPA [20:42:53] https://i.imgur.com/E6TmpPA.jpg [20:43:16] TYLO [20:44:34] Not sure why the deepest points are called "Mara" and not "Mare" [20:45:09] Perhaps after the demon who tempted Buddha? [20:46:53] Action: Scolar_Visari ponders why Feduccia's last significant paper on avian evolution wasn't laughed out of peer review for including a 1916 tripod depiction of Tyrannosaurus as a critical component for their measurements. [20:48:03] oren: typo would be more likely, but I like that idea. [20:50:45] Huh, isn't a Feduccia paper. Still . . . How the Hell did this make it past peer review? [20:51:18] Quick & Ruben, "Cardio-Pulmonary Anatomy in Theropod Dinosaurs: Implications From Extant Archosaurs" Jounral of Morphology 2009 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/24443361/download [20:52:52] I suppose I should be thankful the paper's only been cited 5 times. [20:53:43] Hah, one of the papers that cited Quick & Ruben is the amusing, "Evidence of design in bird feathers and avian respiration". [20:55:22] :3 [20:55:44] Another paper appears to be of a similar disposition. [20:56:20] When two out of all five work to cite your paper are obvious pseudoscience, your paper may not be very good. [20:58:58] Still, the usage of the a hundred year old T. Rex depiction with an anatomically impossible posture and missing/extra bones should've never made it past the first draft. [21:00:14] hah [21:00:56] UmbralRaptop: Quick & Ruben's paper sort of falls apart if you measure parts of the T. Rex as they actually were. [21:01:01] Action: UmbralRaptop is reminded of some silliness where people asked "what if Jurassic Park, but with the Crystal Palace dinosaurs" https://twitter.com/hashtag/JurassicPark1854?src=hash [21:01:18] Teehee [21:02:05] This sort of reminds me the last Pluto/planet paper to get published. Why!? [21:04:09] The stuff Stern's churned out is like blog material, and this is so bad that I half wonder if Quick & Ruben have actually read any book on vertebrate paleontology published since Bakker and Ostrom. [21:04:27] "What do you mean dinosaurs couldn't have walked dragging their tails?" [21:07:03] I suppose it's just as well that less than a tenth of the references in Quick & Ruben are less than a decade old. [21:07:16] That is, from the time the paper was published! [21:11:14] hrm [21:12:02] UmbralRaptop: Ruben went on record to complain that the reason there isn't more support for his conclusion is because of, "museum politics". That is not a good sign [21:12:27] museum [21:12:42] Different museum [21:12:49] museum [21:13:57] (An yeah, that sounds like a code word for something) [21:15:45] Action: Scolar_Visari also recalls another bad paleontological paper published a couple years ago by a non-paleontologist (!) regarding dinosaur sizes being impossible [21:16:19] museum politics are better than normal politics at least [21:17:26] I think the problem is Ruben's not really a victim of museum politics and his own sloppiness. He's playing the Galileo Gambit, nothing more. [21:17:52] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o purpletarget|ktns' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [21:18:03] The paper's genuinely terrible. Like, I think it gave me the flu terrible. [21:18:43] https://imgur.com/a/0JShP7W ok I cleaned up the gallery [21:19:05] Kerbin = Strangreal [21:19:46] Scolar_Visari: So I should name one of those mountain ranges "B7R"? [21:19:59] Yeah, and make sure to include the craters from the Belkan War. [21:20:30] Action: Scolar_Visari eagerly awaits Ace Combat 7 sheninigans. [21:23:20] Action: UmbralRaptop is confused by the ace combat universe. Are they in a post asteroid impact winter? [21:24:56] UmbralRaptop: The asteriod impacts were partially mitigated by stonehenge [21:25:17] UmbralRaptop: The asteroid, Ulysses 1994XF04, actually broke up before impact. [21:25:34] Stonehenge et al. mostly took care of debris left over from the Roche limit destruction. [21:25:55] However, some nations, such as Estovakia, were devastated by the smaller asteroids. [21:27:11] Ulysses 1994XF04 was really just an excuse to have superweapons. [21:27:52] UmbralRaptop: some fragments remained in orbit, and had to be cleaned up by lazer cannons equipped to the Arkbird spaceplane [21:28:05] Also, some pretty sweet orbital launch capabilities ala Arkbird and Ace Combat 7's International Space Elevator. [21:29:08] oren: Amusingly, I don't think the Arkbird had its laser installed until the events of the Unsung War, where it only saw use against the Scinfaxi. [21:29:25] yeah [21:31:23] Action: Scolar_Visari ponders if any Ace Combat 5 and Zero characters will show up in 7. [21:32:14] hmm, if kerbin had warfare, ruling the waves would be less important given that all the land is connected [21:32:32] Supposedly, the player character is responsible for the death of the president. [21:33:03] oren: Ah, but how traversable is that land? Humans were migrating via coastal craft even when N. American and Asia had a landbridge. [21:33:28] Maritime shipping is ridiculously effective. [21:34:43] also you can't reach the south sea (south of the badlands coninent) from the coast of KSC by sea [21:34:58] Canal it! [21:35:26] hmm, or can you. I should check [21:35:35] Project Plowshares KSP. [21:37:05] Wait . . . Since Erusea is the enemy in Ace Combat 7, can Mobius 1 make a return? [21:38:31] Kerbin is weird, though. Orbit he'd be an old man, surely [21:39:12] UmbralRaptop: yeah on kerbin, suborbital transport is totally viable [21:41:06] oren: AC7's only fifteen years past AC4. I mean, if Solid Snake can do it . . . [21:41:45] Cypher would probably be too old, however, though the War Dog/Ghosts of Razgriz group might still be flying. [21:42:01] Action: Scolar_Visari ponders if Blaze = Trigger. [21:44:04] I should have played lose/lose before rebuilding my computer [21:50:11] Just to confirm, there have been no ace combat games with PC releases, right? [21:50:20] (Just one that shared a name) [21:50:33] I think assault horizon was on pc [21:50:47] and infinity might too, not sure [21:54:26] Ace Combat 7 will get a Windows release. [21:54:54] Action: Scolar_Visari still has a PS2 and Xbox for the expressed purpose of playing AC5, 0 and 6. [21:55:12] Though, since my PS2 controllers are borked, I should probably move them to emulation. [21:56:24] I think just assault horizon? (which notably uses a different setting, more like HAWX) [21:56:34] Assault Horizon is set in Earth. [21:56:40] yeah [21:56:49] and I don't think anyone likes it [21:56:54] It featured the gimmicky dog-fight assault mode whatever. Amusingly, I though the helicopter and gunship parts were the best. [21:57:03] I mean, joint assault which is on PSP in on earth too but this one is good [21:57:24] It's been about 10 years since a numbered (that is, in Arabic numerals) Ace Combat title came out. [21:58:04] It looks like AC7 will feature a lot more planes than AC6 did (a depressingly small number), and they've all but confirmed a return of the Falken. [22:00:18] Amusingly, it appears the F-104C will be a flyable aircraft! [22:00:33] Uh [22:07:07] the 104... the missile with a jet engine and a cockpit [22:07:36] Heh [22:07:38] The flying coffin [22:12:49] Action: Scolar_Visari goes off to build a better flying coffin. Or, in the case of the F-104, the falling coffin. [22:13:26] https://imgur.com/wNp7NRc [22:13:26] https://i.imgur.com/wNp7NRc.jpg [22:16:26] is this like the opposite of air hogging? [22:19:17] https://imgur.com/5cJAscc [22:19:17] https://i.imgur.com/5cJAscc.jpg [22:22:13] fancy [22:23:52] headed out to the badlands to do some low and fast flying in the canyons [22:33:02] https://imgur.com/kRo8jg7 [22:33:03] https://i.imgur.com/kRo8jg7.jpg [23:26:09] Anybody know how to launch rockets from the other launch site? I dont have an extra option in the hanger but I have the latest KSP version [23:26:56] Guest10657: What other launch site? Is this from a mod? [23:27:26] There is another launch site that was supposed to be available with the last version. [23:27:28] darsie: probably dessert, woomerang, or island [23:27:37] desert ;) [23:27:40] Yeah, Woomerang [23:27:50] Guest10657: hover over the launch button? [23:28:03] Hover for awhile? [23:28:04] Action: darsie fires up KSP ... [23:28:11] darsie: dessert. I'm angry that this was intentional [23:28:23] OK, I will try that. Thanks [23:28:50] Angry at Squad/Take Two? [23:30:35] gah, why leave before confirming if it worked? [23:30:38] I hovered at the Launch button of the VAB and the launch pad. Nothing happened. [23:30:57] 1.4.5 [23:31:00] darsie: yeah, the name looks like a typo of desert. [23:31:25] checking some settings, you may have to enable it in difficulty settings. [23:32:57] "allow other launchsites" (on by default in sandbox) [23:34:06] Also, you need to hover over the grey tab sticking out below the launch button. [23:34:09] Where? [23:34:19] Action: UmbralRaptop stares at UI designers. [23:34:28] is the setting? [23:36:39] I found enable extra ground stations. [23:37:45] bottom left https://photos.app.goo.gl/h31J8JNJ3UcEdiqZ8 [23:38:35] Can you change that in a running game? [23:38:42] hrm. might explicitly require making history https://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Island_Airfield [23:38:56] You might with save editing? [23:40:23] My last option in that menu is Include Stock Vessels [23:40:36] Don't have Making History. [23:45:09] hrm. probably expansion only. Let's see if they come back. [23:56:17] Okay, I can conform: that setting is only available with making history installed.