[02:53:09] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o Dman979' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [03:57:29] http://www.rightthisminute.com/video/rtmtv-need-five-macbooks-parody-video-satire - I kind of KNEW this one was a joke. there is no way this could have been real at all. [04:15:31] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o Supernovy' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [05:13:03] Anyone know offhand what the dV requirement for LKO is with FAR? [05:15:32] Action: Einarr waves at Lyneira. [05:22:18] Einarr: about 3300m/s (+/- 300) [05:24:45] +/- your skill in designing and piloting [05:25:07] as about that, yesterday i had to actually pull the craft from orbit [05:25:18] Hmm. [05:25:40] The dV map in the channel topic says ~3k for an 80km LKO [05:25:53] I had assumed FAR would reduce that. [05:25:56] Einarr: that's very extreme [05:26:39] it's possible to get lower (with FAR, even), but you need to have just the right trajectory [05:26:47] too many factors, really [05:27:08] I'm trying to build a Falcon-esque rocket where I can bring the first stage back and land it. [05:27:20] So, trying to figure out how much extra dV to pack. [05:28:48] Einarr, i suggest experimenting with that [05:30:32] Einarr, for ksp you'd need fuel to get your stage on trajectory to landing site and then whatever it takes to stop its fall on terminal velocity neat surface [05:31:26] taniwha: I usually use MJ's Ascent mode to get to orbit. I've found it can be reasonably efficient. [05:31:54] Gasher[work]: I'm using this: https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/138871-13-kre-kerbal-reusability-expansion/ [05:31:55] MJ is good for /consistent/ ascents [05:32:09] IT is indeed. [05:32:12] you still have to tweak it to get the most efficient ascent for your rocket [05:32:26] Yes, you do. [05:32:44] But once dialed in, it can be failry efficient. [05:32:55] Action: Einarr can't type... [05:33:09] fairly* [05:33:36] Though, I suppose with poorly designed rockets, it can be failry also... [06:12:45] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o Supernovy' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [06:13:36] So Elon Musk's Mars bound Tesla is supposed to play Space Oddity on its way to mars. [06:13:46] how long will the battery last playing the radio? O.o [06:14:11] I dunno. [06:14:21] Action: iplop can't see it lasting more than a day or two [06:14:39] they should have hooked some solar panels to it so the radio can play forever. [06:14:59] also, I wonder if it'd be able to perform orientation adjustments by spinning the tires :v [06:15:06] LOL. [06:15:15] Redneck reaction wheels. [06:15:21] Eh too late now I guess. [06:15:54] assuming AWD, and given their locations in relation to to the CG & the limited mobility of the front wheels [06:16:07] ...full orientation control should be possible? [06:16:38] iplop, actually sounds like a topic for a short scientific work [06:16:46] Action: iplop is waiting for the Tesla Space Telescope [06:17:24] When is the Falcon Heavy scheduled for launch anyway? [06:17:25] "possibility of orientation control in microgravity using steering drive of 4x4 electric car" [06:17:33] lol [06:18:02] Draconiator: no concrete launch date yet (that I'm aware of) [06:18:15] what I've read so far: "possibly by the end of february" [06:18:42] lol, car wheel based steering in space. i guess it transfers a little amount of angular momentum so you can rotate in space [06:19:03] someone build a KSP mockup! [06:19:47] we just have the static fire test date which is friday now [06:20:25] You know if the rocket fails, someone is going to recover the roadster and sell it lol [06:20:42] that is bound to happen if it is a success too :) [06:20:44] What will the static fire test consist of? Surely they can't fire the engines at full thrust while holding it in place? O.o [06:20:51] yes you can [06:20:55] o0o [06:20:56] that is the point [06:20:57] if rocket fails they usually recovered a burnt pile of tangled metal [06:20:58] didn't know that [06:21:22] the point is measuring how the burning is going [06:21:23] first of all, when fully fueled, there is not that much of a force to compensate for. second they have the launch clamps [06:21:48] will the static test consist of a full duration burn? [06:21:54] they did it with every falcon 9, so probably not that much different, just more clamps [06:22:03] wow [06:22:17] no [06:25:00] welp, I look forward to watching the stream on friday [06:25:35] don't get too excited, they could always postpone it [06:25:46] just as they did yesterday [06:25:55] and also, why do you think it will be streamed? [06:26:05] probably not by spacex [06:26:20] there are some people who watch them and put it on youtube :) [06:26:21] Gasher[work] --the story of every time I've ever attempted to watch a shuttle launch [06:26:29] "postponed" :C [06:27:59] at various times I've tried to watch like 6 rocket launches. They were all postponed [06:28:12] hehe [06:30:38] lol [06:31:03] i dont have that problem, there are exactly 0 rocket launches here [06:32:00] I live quite a ways away -the attempts were during school trips, etc. [06:33:09] hehe baikonur is only 3300 km away [06:35:04] You could visit on your lunch break! [06:35:09] Kenedy space center is ~500 miles from me [06:35:21] that is even farther [06:37:20] They also plan to land all three cores too. I'm sure they'll pull it off. [06:37:49] Vandenberg is 280 miles from me. I keep meaning to go. [08:11:36] ... [08:11:45] Did auto struts go away? [08:44:52] Einarr: sadly, no [09:25:26] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o UmbralRaptor' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [12:14:32] "guy who invented the piano: what if we laid a harp on its side and added hammers" [12:16:05] Fluburtur, the one who invented the piano only invented hammers for it. [12:17:13] the guy who made the hammered dulcimer coudn't be bothered inventing the whole hammer things so he just played it directly with the tiny hamemrs [12:18:25] ok, mechanical hammers [12:19:27] anyways playing a 9 string bass is better than piano [12:19:42] if you can do two melodies by tapping at the same time [12:20:03] like this dude https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5i55WwqU-3Ph9S-FVQ5MqvzMPLfObN_b [12:35:21] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypuaJLHK_LQ [12:35:22] YouTube - Omen - Guilhem Desq (Hurdy Gurdy) [12:39:32] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o APlayer' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [13:10:05] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONkc1Y554sc [13:10:06] YouTube - Kerbal Space Program: Enhanced Edition Review [13:10:31] Just as I was asking what it was like [13:11:07] I wonder what people play KSP on a console [13:11:17] it's so keyboard centered and has so many options... [13:11:38] and building huge ships without a mouse? I wonder how they do this without going crazy [13:12:25] how do they clip stuff too? [13:13:48] How do they use mods? [13:14:09] that's the worst part to me [13:14:14] they don't even have mods [13:14:18] UmbralRaptor: probably dont [13:14:27] the only solution they have to problems is more boosters [13:14:51] ajdkdkfgjshsjdkdflgjdhahdhdjd [13:15:14] i hope they can load craft files [13:15:23] The one silver lining in that the cheat menu is activated by Konami Code [13:19:03] well, off to work I go [13:19:13] (I'm only 30min late) [13:22:26] RandomJeb: more boosters means a lot more parts and that means it will run veeeeeerryyy slow. [13:22:34] Scott shows that in the end of the video [13:22:59] My computer is over five years old, it is faster in processing such a construct that the PS4... [13:23:22] to be fair, the design of the PS4 is also five years old [13:38:08] and it was slow then too [14:16:52] https://twitter.com/_youhadonejob1/status/953254986632318976 [14:16:52] <_youhadonejob1> True fact. https://t.co/mSG6hinZgK [14:30:14] morning humans [14:33:54] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o Deddly' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [14:34:04] humans, where? [14:51:31] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o APlayer' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [14:58:56] Hi, I have a question regarding the KSP Camera System. I try to render the Atmosphere (layer 9) on a separate camera. This basically works (sky is displayed) but if I rotate the Camera the Sky turns into a small blue square. A workaround I tried, is rotating ScaledSpace instead of the camera, this works better but the rotation speed is of by about two times. [15:05:43] X52Is this for a mod? In that case, you might consider cross-posting in #kspmodding, but I am not sure how busy the channel has been lately [15:06:46] Woops, I meant to put a colon there to highlight you [15:08:23] Don't highlight a colon. it's rude [15:10:42] yes it is for a mod. thanks! I will do that. [15:13:29] What kind of mod will this be, if I may ask? [15:14:29] X52: try #kspmodding, you may have a better chance at an answer. [15:15:19] X52: I wish I could answer, but I've only playing around with asteroid modding [15:15:40] ve2dmn: I already advised them to post there :P [15:16:54] Just trying to reinforce your opinion. [15:17:20] Not that people here don't know... but since it's mostly players... [15:21:12] At least there's more activity there then in the twitter feed of the CubeWorld developpers [15:27:48] Guys i think the bitcoin bubble ist bursting right now [15:27:59] About time. [15:28:14] 2000 dollar down today [15:28:48] And like 200 in the last 15 minutes [15:29:47] hopefully graphics cards can return to less insane prices [15:29:53] A coworker just got into ether mining :) [15:30:33] I told him that it might not be the best time to do that [15:30:33] Is that why memory price rose? [15:30:54] Part of it maybe [15:31:15] because in some cases, ECC is cheaper [15:31:20] Which seems crazy to me [15:31:46] I heard that the samsung battery diseaster postet an uncalculated demand on the memory supply too [15:31:58] Tank2333: How much was a bitcoin worth before today? [15:32:12] 12000 i think [15:32:51] Around christmas it spiked at 17000 and from there it did go downhill with little ups [15:33:13] Humm, I see [15:33:16] Time to short [15:33:38] https://www.bitstamp.net [15:33:56] There is a counter at the bottum with the current trading value [15:34:21] Even less now than 5 minutes ago... [15:36:23] yeah, well, one of the issue with bitcoin is that it takes 20min to register the transaction [15:36:31] Looks pretty severe, to my limited stock trading knowledge [15:36:41] Which is still much better then the 3-5 business days of banks [15:40:11] Been doing some cleaning of bookmarks and found this: https://isthereanydeal.com/#/page:game/info?plain=kerbalspaceprogram [15:40:18] might be useful to someone [15:42:00] I just got interrested recently in crypto thingys, maybe ups and downs of 2000 a day is normal but the trend since late december is down [15:45:13] That's interesting, ve2dmn. I didn't even know it was available outside of the Squad store, GOG and Steam. [15:45:43] I'm guessing most are just selling steam keys [15:45:58] Oh, right [15:46:14] Why buy a steam key from someone other than Steam? [15:46:17] I know IndieGala is [15:47:15] "Price reduced to 72,00¬" ?? [15:47:37] What was it before, 1 BTC? [15:47:51] Aside from HumbleBundle? 'meh' [15:50:22] Deddly: 1 Leprechaun Gold coin [15:52:15] Deddly: those are voucher... I would probably not touch thoses [15:54:57] Yeah [15:55:09] Mat2ch https://youtu.be/2rAl4Hd7CHA [15:55:10] YouTube - Marble Machine X part 23 - DREAM WORKSHOP BUILD [16:10:42] Fluburtur: still Martin. There are tools for this, Martin! Use them! ;) [16:11:05] Fluburtur: also I'd buy a star sky t-shirt :D [16:11:08] this guy can do anything [16:12:06] Can he fly too? [16:12:14] probably [16:12:43] haha the new console ksp... from private division. with a rhombus as a logo. haha [16:15:40] Althego: a whole subsidiary of MegaCorp unlimited [16:15:55] like... well... everything really [16:25:51] I pointed out ages ago that the steam version had changed to private division with no mention of squad, but it says squad again [16:27:30] Squad got put under the 'Private Division' label, which is the Indie Label of the parent company [17:00:37] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B0WPzMad6U [17:00:37] YouTube - KSP Machinima Space Oddity VFS [17:01:54] *sigh* "Please do not print this email"... really. Who the hell DOES THAT? [17:02:09] furthermore [17:02:18] why is that silly message perpetuated? [17:02:27] it may have made sense 20 years ago, not much anymore [17:05:40] "Please do not send this print by E-Mail" would make more sense [17:05:54] not really [17:06:46] well at least it's not a video [17:07:35] video in az word doc [17:08:11] https://thedailywtf.com/articles/Web_0_0x2e_1 [17:08:51] flyer-to-print-to-photo-to-print-to-scan-to-web [17:09:57] https://thedailywtf.com/articles/Web-01-Forms [17:21:21] URL language? [17:56:15] bwoop [17:56:27] ksp livestream today in a bit [17:56:41] wew [17:56:53] how is the canadair [17:57:06] still haven't built a new tail [17:57:28] rename it the "canadair eh" [17:57:35] cant kake heads or tails :) [17:57:38] make [17:58:34] transitbiker it needs a name https://i.imgur.com/onHgV7H.jpg [17:58:47] https://i.imgur.com/Ivuw2mG.jpg [17:59:14] untitled spacecraft [17:59:40] ooo a CL145 [17:59:41] just read the instructions [17:59:51] eh [17:59:57] doesn't really look like any model [18:00:52] the empenage needs to be a slight bit higher, to aid in clearing the water, and avoid tail strikes on landing, otherwise perfect [18:01:09] the engine nacelles are also wrong [18:01:15] but yeah it needs a proper name [18:01:24] rocinante :) [18:01:29] ve2dmn i print out email whnevet i like too! [18:01:31] heh [18:01:45] the Goose 145 [18:02:32] 415* [18:02:38] so like I write goose on it [18:02:53] I need a airbrush to do that [18:03:59] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o APlayer' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [18:04:44] transit have you downloaded my crafts for your stream? [18:05:23] http://s3.amazonaws.com/everystockphoto/fspid30/14/78/78/6/canadair-cl415-firecat-1478786-o.jpg [18:05:35] no, not yet D: [18:05:43] yeah I know what those look like [18:05:47] I did some research [18:06:07] one of my favorite aircraft :) [18:06:08] and concluded that most peoples don't know every detail of a canadair so I can just paint mine red and yellow and be fine [18:06:32] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvPYPwuqIDI [18:06:32] YouTube - canadair fast water taxi [18:08:17] how much splash protection do the motors have? [18:08:38] I put water deflectors on the sides [18:08:41] Absorbs 200 ml before saturating [18:08:48] oh nice [18:08:49] before there was water going into the props [18:09:00] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-TMWQB_rxk [18:09:00] YouTube - canadair water taxi test [18:09:05] that was before [18:09:10] yeah, that can be bad for RC props, being unbalanced and stuff [18:09:12] first tim I put it in the water [18:09:24] it was slowing them down [18:09:38] but when it is going fast enough and sliding on the water it isn't a problem [18:10:39] uh I need to update the imgur album [18:10:42] looks a bit flood there [18:10:49] yeh [18:10:53] is it from snow melting? [18:11:20] mostly rain I think [18:11:54] here when we have rain falling on more than a few inches of snow it can get near flood because its melt water plus the rain [18:13:08] all the streams and small creeks and stuff overflow a bit, but the main rivers and bigger creeks usually just a bit higher, unless its a lot of rain then they can start to get full [18:14:04] https://i.imgur.com/5hxBSPC.jpg [18:14:15] https://i.imgur.com/QLarW71.jpg [18:14:46] made from a ice cream container [18:14:51] idea of madmerlyn [18:15:01] hm? [18:15:09] here is the whole album btw https://imgur.com/a/3QFUT [18:15:17] this one bridge i know of, the bottom of the concrete span is like 6-7 meters above the water, when it floods the water can be over the roadway on one side as it is on an incline, pretty freaky [18:15:19] Our area used to suffer from floods so they built canals decades ago (in the fifties, if I recall correctly). One of them goes right through the city, partially below ground. The canal was full once on my memory and there was a bit of water another time, but never had a flood here [18:15:20] madmerlyn when I wanted to know how to make the deflectors [18:15:44] nice [18:17:43] the creek i speak of has many man made flow management things, weirs, stone masonry deflectors, parts of the creek were dredged to allow for fish to be added there for recreational fishing, i cant imagine how high the water could get before all those things [18:18:36] this one weir is like a slide, but you never want to go near it if the water is over an inch flowing over at the top, too dangerous [18:19:05] usually just a finger width of water flowing [18:19:13] Uh LOL, the engines are literally dancing on this rocket [18:19:35] are they ion engines? if so it could ba called electric slide [18:20:32] any of you see that one rocket that had the top half spinning around? [18:20:56] https://imgur.com/a/j6cIC [18:21:06] Don't ask me what happens here [18:21:19] They are not even breaking, except for a few of them colliding on occasion [18:21:22] it has happy feet [18:22:14] ok, i need tea, then livestream [18:22:18] It's extremely amusing to watch in real time, rather than on screenshots, which can't convey the motion [18:22:59] Anyhow, needs to be fixed before this one is cleared to fly :P [18:23:22] imagine that happening irl [18:24:10] No, please not [18:24:18] I have to go eat transitbiker I should be back in around 30 minutes [18:24:26] LOL wut [18:24:33] Use commas, dude, haha [18:24:45] yeah I forgot a thing [18:24:46] lel [18:24:48] anyways brb [18:25:22] OK, engine issues were cause by initially loading the engines below ground level in the VAB [18:25:39] Moving the rocket up a few meters fixed it, went better than I expected [18:28:44] coca cola started out green with cocaine, and pepsi cola started out brown with pepsin, now both are blackish brown and can cause a laundry list of ailments from rotting teeth to diabetes WHY are these companies still in business?? [18:29:01] x-x [18:30:18] right, tea, brb [18:41:26] im back [18:47:20] https://i.imgur.com/tx7HZ9b.png [18:47:58] APlayer: It's only free if you don't value your time [18:48:56] I think this is just meant funny ;P [18:49:18] stepson "thats a waste of time" defining anything not done on computer [18:49:35] lol [18:49:36] i do worry about him sometimes x-x\ [18:50:02] transitbiker: tell him his cellphone is a waste of time then. [18:50:13] a phione today is a computer [18:50:14] also you could write a phone bot doing the same thing. :D [18:50:27] far better compared to ones we had when i was young [18:50:31] hes not getting one of those till he's 16, and he needs to have some kinda major chores going on or some kind of income to pay for it [18:51:11] https://twitter.com/khaxan/status/953440752687661056 [18:51:12] When you're a civil engineer but you always wanted to be a network engineer https://t.co/G5dEdAlsq9 [18:51:17] transitbiker: make him pay full price and not get a 3year contract [18:51:27] well, you could tell him, if he get's a computer he has to do crazy build projects and make youtube videos about it ;) [18:52:08] they both want cats, its like guise, if we get cat, guess who is going to go to store with me or mom to get food etc and cleaning out litter box and feed/check water and clean out bowls? you tow are [18:52:16] transit when do you think you will start the stream? [18:52:39] soon, gotta get the youtube page set up [18:53:02] alright [18:53:12] Because I know my OnePlus' true value, I still have it and it's still working fine... the number of kids I see with cracked screen on a daily basis is... depressing [18:53:17] transitbiker: well, you could take them to the animal shelter and have them do there some voluntarily work [18:53:28] ^ [18:53:56] great idea [18:54:18] "now, take those scissors and listen closely.." [18:54:30] Fluburtur: wrong movie! [18:54:36] heh [18:54:51] Mat2ch: although, to be honest, that idea destroyed my sister's view of the world... [18:55:00] actually, yeah, i think that's what we will do, have them volunteer for like 40 hours then see if they still want a cat [18:55:17] ... but the animal shelter was badly run and got shut down... still... [18:55:43] ve2dmn: I prefer people living in reality instead of their own little world... even if it's hard. Some day they will have to deal with it anyway and this way they can learn it in a controlled environment [18:56:11] ok, didn't expect that [18:56:14] our two closest shelters are run by national non-profit animal welfare organizations [18:56:17] Mat2ch: it's a bit more complicated. The shelter got shut down for animal cruelty things... [18:56:28] woah [18:56:34] I thought it was just the realization that some people mistreat animals and such [18:56:45] :\ [18:56:50] They were in it for the animal resell value and city contracts... [18:56:52] and not that this is done in the shelter itself :| [18:56:55] I kinda want to build a arsenal VG 33 [18:57:11] Fluburtur: what's your Canadair doing? ;) [18:57:24] i dunno, my girlfriend wants a kitten, i'm like uhhh... there are thousands of adult cats with no home [18:57:29] it's waiting in a corner of my room for a new tail and new receiver [18:57:41] receiver broke? [18:57:48] kind [18:57:54] you converting it to a cruciform tail from standard? [18:58:04] misses one antenna and the model inside doesn't like water [18:58:15] also the new one will have better range over water [18:58:20] spray foam? :D [18:58:43] resealable sandwich bag! [18:58:57] nah [18:59:05] nothing in that plane is waterproofed [18:59:21] the receiver is just placed on top of the interior so water can't go up there [18:59:37] you could try taking the electronics out, stripping them bare, and spraying on some kind of polymer insulation [18:59:49] http://www.modelisme-racer.fr/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Modele-mag-VG-33.jpg [19:00:01] nah the receiver case is enough [19:00:05] the motors, do they have brushes? [19:00:14] it's a model I used in the rc boat before [19:00:19] and nah it's brushless motors [19:00:40] `the newer brushless motors are pretty good [19:00:53] yeah [19:00:57] i remember some early version needed user input to start turning [19:01:04] can run underwater with no problem [19:01:08] woah [19:01:24] kerbal submarine program [19:01:29] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-61FkaZivU [19:01:30] YouTube - ye boat [19:01:42] no waterproofing cardboard rc boat [19:02:29] i know one of the big issues with brushed motors and water, isnt the water making a short, but rather the water getting between the brushes and the commutator, breaking the circuit via fluid dynamics [19:02:34] madmerlyn: do you still have tha kOS gedit link handy? [19:04:35] old railroad journal bearings used fluid dynamics to pull oil from the journal box up and around the journal (axle end), and a huge problem was under-lubricated journals, whcih not only cost money to replace the axle set, but time and could catch fire [19:04:59] madmerlyn: forget it. Found it [19:05:09] What gedit link? [19:05:16] What is gedit, that is? [19:05:19] so now instead of having a huge freight car fleet with all these pots of oil rolling around, they use roller bearings [19:05:33] APlayer: kerscript highlight for editors [19:05:51] is that what scott manley used? [19:05:54] I know air bearings are used in some cases [19:05:59] for his hovering rings? [19:06:09] rely on the fluid dynamics of air [19:06:13] yes [19:06:21] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_bearing [19:06:42] Whoops, I kind of messed up. Pressed space bar on a rocket with all stuff activated at stage 0, because it was meant for kOS script activation [19:07:05] At least it did not destroy KSC [19:07:06] APlayer: ABORT! ABORT! [19:07:28] uh I could have built a VG 33 for the flite test forum challenge [19:07:35] since it didn't saw service [19:07:37] APlayer gedit is gnome's default text editor [19:07:47] would have made one of the few french planes of the challenge [19:07:50] some turbines start out low rpm using oil then become air bearing [19:07:55] ve2dmn: Would have been a good idea, actually. The stages are individually controllable. But of course it did not occur to me in time [19:08:19] one that comes to mind is a dentist drill [19:08:43] uses ceramic with a special coating for start up and slow down, but air otherwise [19:09:41] i think dentist drills are like one of the most expensive non-radiological pieces of medical equipment [19:09:42] Oh, but the engines are dancing again [19:10:34] Might be a rather specific thrust plate I am using, then [19:10:36] they want to be footloose [19:10:38] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyD8BxoB2To [19:10:39] YouTube - Footloose Final Dance 1984 to 2011 [19:11:32] APlayer: I link I was looking for: https://github.com/KSP-KOS/EditorTools [19:11:52] Ah, I know that link, even, LOL [19:12:02] I'm suprised to see nano in there [19:12:12] Was researching this recently, actually found a dedicated IDE for kOS [19:13:08] But I still stick with my old setup, which is a webdev IDE (Brackets) with the syntax highlighter set on a language which seems to syntactically resemble Kerboscript (Scribus, whatever that is) [19:13:30] Might not even syntactically resemble Kerboscript, but the highlighting works fine [19:13:56] Sribus? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scribus [19:15:06] Interesting to know [19:15:53] I work in the publishing industry... well, not exactly but closely related [19:15:58] We do Open Access [19:17:45] Ah [19:18:05] stream starting in 30 seconds [19:18:09] https://gaming.youtube.com/channel/UCZuDQkMA5GF3Jh29ElK3-uQ/live [19:18:11] So you're the fixit guy in an Open Access company? :P [19:18:16] nice [19:18:23] transitbiker: What are you going to stream? [19:18:34] ksp [19:19:32] APlayer: I'm just a sysadmin [19:19:37] Well, yes, but what are you planning to do? [19:20:11] ve2dmn: I was just kidding, you once said "yeah, basically" when I asked if you were the fixit guy ;-) [19:20:49] I'm in a new office. Far from the not-IT people now [19:21:13] don't forget my planes [19:21:16] ve2dmn: PLOS? ArXiv? [19:21:18] They can fix their own problems themselves, I'm not there to do it anymore [19:21:25] I don't even remember which ones I sent you last time [19:21:26] QualifyingRaptor: if only. [19:21:48] ve2dmn: libgen? Sci-hub? >_> [19:22:00] nope [19:22:11] Action: QualifyingRaptor ignores that ve2dmn is Canadian, not Russian. [19:23:31] QualifyingRaptor: Secret governmental open access things :P [19:23:47] I never talk directly about my employer. [19:24:19] It's a habit I kept from when I worked in Tech support [19:24:43] Because I didn't want people contacting me directly with their issues [19:26:00] feel free to comment here on the livestream by the way :D [19:27:41] QualifyingRaptor: but it's super fun to work with library protocols designed for the 1970s-1980s [19:28:07] Library as in Book... not .lib [19:28:51] Action: QualifyingRaptor hands ve2dmn a dozen terabytes of FITS files. [19:30:14] Action: ve2dmn refuse any requests not formated according to the LOC USMARC/ CANMARC /Z.3950 protocols [19:31:08] Z39.50* , typo [19:32:18] The modernazation of Z39.50 (because it's a pre-web thing), falls under the designation 'ZING' [19:32:24] (I wish I was kidding) [19:33:27] And the expected behavior must be Bath-Compliant, according to the Bath Profile [19:36:13] bath vcompliant? [19:36:18] now that sounds like a joke [19:36:31] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z39.50 [19:36:53] "An attempt to remedy this situation is the Bath Profile (named after Bath, England, where the working group first met in 1999). This document rigidly specifies the exact search syntax to employ for common bibliographic searches, and the expected behavior of Bath-compliant servers in response to these searches." [19:37:22] throw this out and use an sql select? [19:38:01] Althego: welcome to the wonderful worlds of libraries [19:38:26] ever heard of arinc 424? [19:39:28] sounds familiar [19:39:40] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARINC_424 [19:40:01] isn't that like the airplane ID system or something like it? [19:40:10] its description is hundreds of pages of in what column what few characters mean what when the record type is what [19:40:54] still in use [19:41:06] protocols never die [19:41:11] today a sane person would just use xml, and use an xml parser lib [19:43:06] probably what the backend is today [19:43:11] i think gopher is pretty much dead [19:43:29] teletext is still going [19:44:13] oh the french optical telesocpe network is also dead :) [19:44:21] *optical telegraph [19:44:34] morse is mostly discontinued [19:45:27] Is using the upper stage deorbit retro-SRBs to achieve orbit (which was missed due to bad trajectory) and the de-orbiting the upper stage with RCS a valid way of not quite failing? [19:45:54] obviously [19:46:06] those are the reserves in the design [19:46:52] Alright, let me see if the engineer packed enough of them to save the day [19:46:59] APlayer: whatever floats your boat [19:47:41] It actually gave me about 80 m/s, but not enough to go for orbit [19:47:50] Althego: libraries are an interesting niche. They care about archives more then modern feature. [19:48:12] actually it turns out things just die out from the net [19:48:17] Last hope is that the RCS is enough, should have about 4 min 30 worth of monopropellant [19:48:24] They also have weird requirement for documentation archiving, and tend to be stuck in the past for almost everything [19:48:26] so libraries may be here after the net too [19:48:31] Well my Behemoth mission ended not as intended - first I lost my refueler probes on Gilly [19:48:35] But the TWR is puny, might give even less dV than the retrorockets [19:48:39] they just glitched away [19:49:14] and than - in an attempt to use the deltaV I got left wisely - I tried to do at least duna and ike [19:49:38] and went to deep on the aerobraking [19:49:39] Actually, 3 min 50 left of RCS fuel [19:50:19] Nah, not enough for orbit [19:51:59] APlayer: go out and push! [19:52:31] And so the dummy ore tank payload reenters Earth's atmosphere, with no means of actually achieving orbit, having experienced just under 14 minutes of weightlessness [19:52:41] ve2dmn: Unmanned test launch [19:53:01] Basically what Musk is doing with his car, I am doing with my ore tank [19:53:02] APlayer: no revert? [19:53:21] Of course I will revert, but it's fun to dramatize such moments :P [19:54:05] Also, it's strikingly beautiful, with RSS and RVE and it even runs on my computer at full FPS now [19:55:46] I'm totally watching this reentry [19:58:47] APlayer: what's your CPU? [19:59:20] https://i.imgur.com/y2jCHa0.png a glimpse [19:59:56] ve2dmn: i5 Quad core at 3.1 GHz [20:00:00] Because that's the only part in my current desktop that I could 'max out' [20:00:08] KSP livestream! https://gaming.youtube.com/channel/UCZuDQkMA5GF3Jh29ElK3-uQ/live [20:00:08] But it's the GPU that is the bottleneck [20:00:28] APlayer: ok, I think I have a sub 2.8GHz i5 [20:00:44] I get the 'Let's do garbage collection every 5 sec' issue [20:01:06] My GPU is actually not meant for gaming, and is a workstation one. Used to be even more trashy than it is now, but the old one (you have /not/ guessed it) melted [20:01:44] If you rig runs smooth and mine has issues, I'm wondering what you've got that I don't [20:02:07] because if it was only the GPU, lowering the visuals would solve the issue. It doesn't [20:02:32] + 8GB of RAM + all of my KSP install is on SSD [20:03:20] I have more then twice then, and I'm running it all on an SSD... [20:03:50] Maybe tweaking the swap file would help... [20:04:04] How many mods do you use? [20:04:33] I'm not at home, but I can find my .ckan [20:05:32] My GameData has 111 Elements in it, I estimate I have about 100 mod folders. Most of them are tiny modlets or individual dependency .dlls, so if you use significantly more, that might cause trouble [20:06:00] I barely use maybe 30 mods? [20:06:09] Also, my RAM of 8 GB usually fills up from KSP, and I use few part mods. Many part mods could cause RAM bottlenecks [20:07:27] Yeah, I know I'm not the only one with this issue, where the game run great, and then 'freeze' for 0.5sec every 5 sec [20:07:28] Also, lowering the visuals does not always help [20:07:48] Uh, that sounds like RAM, TBH [20:08:02] It's garbage collection. [20:08:21] Might be some swap file causing it? [20:08:28] I have 32GB of ram... [20:08:43] How much of it is free when you play KSP usually? [20:08:50] around 10GB ? [20:08:55] maybe more? [20:09:03] Also, where did you find all of that RAM? o.o [20:09:17] I maxed out the Motherboard [20:10:03] I test out virtual machines of Linux for work, so I kind of routinely start machines with 4 or 8 GB [20:10:06] Humm, 8 GB is actually not bad IMO, 16 GB would be more than enough for all my needs, but 32 GB sounds... excessive, LOL [20:10:23] It was cheap at the time, so I maxed the motherboar [20:10:33] I see [20:10:34] My computer is... 4 years old? [20:10:43] Mine might be similar [20:10:45] I wanted to keep it as long as possible [20:11:06] Got it as a retired workstation from a rather big company for next to nothing [20:11:22] Uh wait, is 4 years old for you? [20:12:01] I usually keep a computer for 5 years, but I don't see any reason why this computer should not last more [20:13:07] Heh, I usually keep a computer until it irrecoverably dies or becomes so slow I deem it not acceptable by modern standards [20:13:24] I have my previous computer as TVPC [20:13:41] Makes sense [20:14:11] Does not need a lot of resources so can use almost anything for that [20:14:18] Need to consider doing such a thing :D [20:14:36] At the time, I was working rotating shifts... so gaming was 90% of my 'social life' [20:14:40] Although my computers are rather big to use them in such a place [20:15:35] APlayer: I have several 'recycled' computer: stuff that still sort of works, but is missing a piece [20:16:08] 30% of my TVPC is from these [20:17:01] eventually, I throw away the rest and wait for the rest round of 'Hey, I'm trowing away my old computer, want it' from friends and family [20:17:19] This rocket keeps getting more and more features... Survived reentry without problems, releasing payload in atmo in prograde direction launches it off like a missile (because it weighs 23 tons compared to the empty upper stage 5 tons), and when it hits the ground front first, the payload adapter is destroyed, then it bounces and the engine is destroyed, and then the tank lands safely [20:17:32] Technically, I have created a rocket with reusable upper stage tank now [20:17:44] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o Supernovy' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [20:18:14] Supernovy: good last-part-of-sol! [20:18:21] Oh, wait, there is more stuff lying around the rocket [20:18:40] APlayer: what, the termometer survived? [20:19:16] Yo. [20:47:37] APlayer: sorry, I don't plot my data often enough :/ [20:48:05] Humm, alright, so you don't happen to know such software? [20:48:41] what happens when you use a mammoth to fly a plane? [20:48:44] KSP livestream! https://gaming.youtube.com/channel/UCZuDQkMA5GF3Jh29ElK3-uQ/live [20:49:13] APlayer: aside from GNUplot? nope :/ [20:49:15] try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_information_graphics_software [20:49:48] bought Utopia and Synthetic DLCs today for Stellaris [20:49:59] madmerlyn: you madman [20:50:18] I'm gonna try to play tall [20:50:35] madmerlyn: you madman!!! [20:50:55] ho, wait... just tall. Ok. [20:51:20] For a second there, I had the impression that you were going for the one planet challenge [20:51:35] well I could :P [20:51:52] nah I'll probably just stick to 1 early and go for core worlds only, no sectors mid and late [20:51:54] If you are going to play Tall, try to maximize the Unity you get. [20:52:27] If you can get some powerfull friends, you might be able to pull it off [20:53:19] If you spawn next to a determined exterminator, driven assimilator or a fanatic purifier, your strategy might be doomed [20:53:33] You'll know very early in the game anyway [20:53:39] well that's why even the best players lose 1/3 matches right? :P [20:54:03] strategy games are boring if they're easy [20:54:44] I played maybe 10 games to get that 'assimilate the galaxy' one [20:55:33] I win about 10-20% of the time. I stop playing early if it's a lost cause (like being stuck between 2 fallen empire) [20:56:16] brb caffeine [20:57:55] Do they even make equatorial launches from the real KSC? Or is that nearly impossible given the inclination? [20:58:46] the roll program on ascent takes care of all that [20:59:20] Sure, it must, but they've got to travel around 1/8 of the globe in order to arrive at the equator [20:59:58] that is why so many sats come with thrusters, or boosters that get it into its final altitude and inclination [21:01:04] If you are already in such a 45 deg inclination orbit, I doubt sat thrusters will help you much in correcting it [21:01:36] At most if there is some sort of gravitational perturbation effect that causes this, but I am unaware of one (on the other hand, I am not aware of many of them) [21:01:39] shuttle only had 300m/s dv on orbit, some of which was used for deorbiting [21:03:02] I don't think Canaveral is going to put you in a 45 degree orbit though, it's not so much that equatorial launches are easier to achieve as it is the fact that your horizontal velocity is highest at the equator due to physics [21:03:13] roll program plus optional booster modules that sat inside fairing is what i'm most aware of - other options include launching from other sites, which may or may not be logistically possible [21:04:22] madmerlyn: Yeah, but can't launch into a 0 deg orbit straightforwardly from such a large latitude [21:04:59] You need some weird and dV-costly maneuvers to get to the equator [21:05:27] equatorial isn't necessary for most applications anyway, it's preferred because of the free horizontal speed [21:05:35] ISS is on a 51.6 degree inclination [21:05:38] transitbiker: Roll program is what I am looking at here, because MOAR boosters does not seem to help in this case [21:05:51] madmerlyn: Looking at Mars probes here [21:06:15] Is that a thing? Going interplanetary from inclined orbits? [21:06:23] what significance does equatorial have on going to Mars? [21:06:31] yes, I do it in KSP all the time [21:06:47] Well, you kind of travel at up to 8 km/s perpendicular to the ecliptic plane [21:07:40] 8km/s seems high.. also when hitting something 100M miles away you don't have to burn relative normal/anti-normal a whole lot to change the approach vector [21:07:57] you do your ejection, and make a course correction [21:07:58] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+v Guest18749' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [21:08:20] Russia was probing the moon practically from the Arctic circle [21:08:34] with SRBs no less [21:09:00] Humm, indeed [21:09:19] So I'll research interplanetary burns from inclined trajectories, then [21:09:52] It's important they stay precisely true to the calculations, still, because I need some rather significant accuracy in arrival place and time [21:10:09] Will be doing tons of precise landings at direct Mars entry trajectories [21:14:17] KSP livestream! https://gaming.youtube.com/channel/UCZuDQkMA5GF3Jh29ElK3-uQ/live [21:14:25] looks like the most efficient launch inclination from Canaveral is 28.5 degrees [21:14:53] which is its latitude, makes sense [21:15:35] Ah, 28.5 deg, then. (Looks like 45 deg to me, but I am bad at eyeballing) [21:17:51] What's the latitude of the Ariane Launches [21:18:00] also combining inclination change, or some of it anyway, into the ejection burn also helps [21:18:02] Kourou, I guess? [21:18:31] madmerlyn: I somehow have not considered ejecting from interplanetary trajectories [21:18:53] Uh, LOL, I messed up that sentence [21:19:01] I wonder how much dV you would require to go to the next galaxy [21:19:12] infinite [21:19:22] I guess, wait long enough and it gets here instead [21:19:25] not infinite, just a very large number [21:19:36] "I somehow have not considered ejecting from inclined orbits", that is [21:20:47] just like the sun has a heliopause, there is a point in space where the pressure from the center of the Milky Way no longer exceeds the pressure of space, and you'll begin being attracted to the next closest thing, likely Andromeda [21:20:51] you would not only need to carry enough to escape the milky way, but also enough to slow down for capture at a body somewhere in your target galaxy [21:21:18] well obviously it's a large number, but it's not infinite [21:21:48] close enough to infinite that you wouldnt want to try it, i guess is my point [21:22:00] and slowing down only assumes you want to stop in said galaxy and that you won't have any slingshot interactions to help bleed speed off [21:22:04] madmerlyn: wait long enough and Andromeda get here! [21:22:18] well by that definition everything beyond the Centauri system is infinite [21:22:21] which it is not [21:23:04] transitbiker: there are a few galaxies that are unreachable because they are moving away faster then we could accelarate, true... [21:23:17] but I'm just talking about 'any' galaxy [21:23:59] that is based off the expansion of the universe principle, unless the galaxies are violating relativity they are all within capability to be reached provided you have enough energy [21:24:08] we do not possess the technologies capable of efficiently creating intergalactic travel, so the binary fuel needed would be so large that you'd be better off waiting in a slow ship in hypersleep or a "generation" ship [21:24:27] i mean, there are only so many resources in this galaxy we can reasonably access to begin with [21:24:56] by the time you amass all the fuel needed, you could have been there on the slow ship [21:25:05] transitbiker going to another star likely will require hypersleep or generation ships, what does that have to do with it being "infinite" [21:25:20] obviously we don't have anything that capable or we'd be doing it already [21:26:20] im talking reasonable estimations of resources, i mean even if the craft had 100% efficient engines and nearly massless parts, you'd need such a huge amount of fuel, that it may as well be infinite [21:26:23] we have examined at least 1 object we know is not from our own Solar system in origin, suggesting that the energy requirement is definitely not impossible [21:26:50] basing everything on current technology is not a good way to define infinity [21:27:05] once you pass a certain order of magnitude in fuel needs, it's not worth it, hence it may as well be infinite [21:27:31] well, all we have is current technology [21:27:50] again, you're basing this off of what? You're just supposing that we'd need galactic masses to accelerate [21:28:18] and the amount of fuel depends entirely on specific impulse [21:28:18] to dream up intergalactric travel based on fantasy technology is a useful or the most part, as sourcing your solar system sized fuel tanks to a lowest bid contractor [21:28:28] as useful* [21:28:30] so you can't really say, we'd need this much fuel without knowing what impulse you're getting [21:28:42] obviously our current impulses are not sufficient [21:29:12] just playing devil's advocate - i'd love to see what that kind of travel looks like if it were in fact based on going fast vs slow [21:29:33] Or if time was not an issue [21:29:35] madmerlyn: Consider this engine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fission-fragment_rocket#Dusty_Plasma [21:29:56] obviously it's unrealistic to think we're going to another galaxy, but that is not infinite, it's not even close [21:30:00] just say it's unrealistic [21:31:41] impractical [21:31:44] not unrealistic [21:32:04] unimaginable. [21:32:17] i mean, we would need to mine whole solar systems for resources if you want to go the fast way [21:32:21] in this case the words are interchangeable because human lifespans are not sufficient for that kind of duration even if you account for timeskew based on relative velocity [21:32:24] unadjectified [21:32:44] Unrealistic, because anything that we are able to create in the foreseeable future will not live long enough to arrive at a different galaxy [21:32:45] again you're basing resource needs on current impulses [21:33:07] the other issue is the controversial use of radioactive anything near anything with humans [21:33:09] which we don't know what kind of impulse we'll get with future technology, it's not something you can practically calculate [21:33:26] Chances are, humanity will not even survive before something of this kind arrives at a different galaxy [21:33:27] Nuclear lightbulbs have clean exhaust [21:33:31] how much dV can you get with a solar sail? [21:33:45] infinite as long as you're within helipause [21:33:51] distance from photon source would be an issue [21:33:59] well infinite until the star burns out anyway [21:34:32] so any current-available tech would require a very very very long time. [21:34:41] we would have to build some gigantic laser array way out beyond the heliopause [21:35:13] no, you just wouldn't accelerate beyond helipause, and would actually start decelerating because of the friction of the interstellar medium [21:35:31] but you'd drift for a very long time, and if ejected properly could in some large amount of time enter a new system [21:36:04] in that case a sail may not be as effective as beamed energy for propulsion, similar to the concept of beaming a laser to earth to transmit PV power collected in orbit around the earth [21:37:05] that's actually a wildly different scenario, and highly inefficient. That proposal only has merit because it's a net gain over not having anything at all [21:37:26] it's just using PV to collect concentrated energy, at a very high loss, from space [21:37:34] Mission: You try beamed power. Result: You ship has evaporated [21:38:02] if we survive ourselves and possible intersects with large asteroids long enough to get to the point where these things are practical and technologically available, the products of centuries of R&D could we be in the real of today's most fanciful fiction [21:38:14] Result: You have a cloud of intergalatic evaporated probe [21:38:24] realm* [21:38:31] statistically it's unlikely we'll ever even be capable of properly leaving our solar system as a species [21:38:36] maybe the AI we build will [21:38:50] the other issue that needs to be overcome is the gigantic delay in communications [21:39:33] "Overcome" [21:39:43] communications aren't necessary to travel unless it's with the intent of advancing science back home [21:39:43] Because we don't like Einstein [21:40:03] if we can somehow manifest some kind of quantum hyperspace communications system, where information is pretty much instantaneously transferred, we could have a real shot at intergalactic colonization [21:40:13] also, light based communication will likely go much faster than anything we put out there so while latency will suck it's hardly a hurdle compared to everything else [21:40:52] intergalactic colonization is both unlikely and not really something a human would have a purpose for [21:41:17] by the time you're colonizing galaxies you're something well beyond an organism, singularity level AI stuff there [21:41:29] madmerlyn: Your intergalactic probe, the product of centuries of human work, the result of man-work-millennia, gets hit by a speck of intergalactic dust and is destroyed. You won't know earlier than millions of years after the incident happened [21:41:40] to bring life from the earth with its finite habitability time-line seems a pretty purposeful to me! [21:41:55] purposeful thing* [21:41:56] the entire universe has finite hability timelines [21:42:03] right [21:42:04] Now, that gets philosophical [21:42:11] and by the time our star is burning out, so will most of the stars in the universe [21:42:26] we buy a little time if we go live on planets near red dwarves for a while [21:42:30] we are the only species that has the capability of taking the life from this world and moving it elsewhere [21:42:45] We think* we are the only species [21:42:54] (Just being pedantic) [21:43:05] I'd wager any endeavor to go to another galaxy because all the stars in this one are starting to burn out will be pointless because all the galaxies will be in the same state of entropy [21:43:08] we are the only ones currently on this planet to have that capacity ;) [21:43:30] we have the capacity to go to other inner system planets [21:43:46] well, perhaps by that time we will have created some method of star generation, titan ae style [21:44:00] by breaking relativity and physics? [21:44:06] ok so why does a god need to go to another galaxy then [21:44:18] for the raw materials [21:44:25] that makes no sense [21:44:33] if we're generating stars, we don't need raw materials [21:44:36] that's not how entropy works [21:44:48] we could take the raw materials from the rest of the universe to create a cluster of stable solar systems [21:44:57] still not how entropy works [21:45:03] im not talking about that [21:45:18] you're talking about making stars that don't burn out, that's not physically possible [21:45:23] Anyway, guys, I am off for today, so see you! Just as a reminder (the discussion is pretty civilized so far!), try to keep out religion, beliefs and things that might escalate quickly. Thanks for the nice talk! See you! [21:45:35] i all the stars are cold, we would need to clump many of them together to have any chance of igniting fusion [21:45:41] see you, aplayer :D [21:46:00] again, by the time all the stars here are burning out, going somewhere else isn't going to magically provide us with fresh resources [21:46:00] dyson sphere fusion reactor [21:46:09] that doesn't solve entropy at all [21:46:16] whats your idea, then? [21:46:31] there is no idea, heat death of the universe is an unsolvable problem [21:46:46] Asimov wrote a great short story on the very concept [21:46:50] i personally have no real problem fading away with the universe as it cools [21:46:57] as a species, i mean [21:47:06] when your time is up, it's up [21:47:21] again, it won't be humans, maybe AIs we create, but nothing biological will make it very long [21:47:31] just steal the energy from another reality there are enough in 10-dimensional space [21:47:38] ^ [21:47:54] it's a pipedream to think we'll colonize the galaxy or other galaxies as we currently exist [21:48:01] we need to find another dimension to live in [21:48:04] we're inefficient, needy things [21:48:33] resistance is futile m8 [21:49:00] i wonder what will become of us [21:49:22] borg unrealistic too, AIs or some kind of energy-based life (which we don't know if is even a thing) will be the only kind of being with longevity to persist until the energy runs out [21:49:38] we'll die out like every other life form that has existed on our planet [21:49:55] to quote Randall Munroe "The universe is probably littered with the ruins of civilizations that made the economically sound decision that interstellar exploration is not worth it" (not literally - taken from memory) [21:50:26] well, in the mean time - at least the tea is good [21:50:59] I mean our star is a good one, by the time its gone if somehow we have managed to defy all probability and not died out, there won't be a lot of options for us [21:51:15] reminds me of a movie, where the ship crashed and one of the few things working is the tea brewing machine [21:51:20] and the universe will be a lot more boring once all the stars start dying too [21:51:24] and humans are pretty resiliant and adaptable creatures - nothing short of a asteroid breaking the planet can currently wipe out the species [21:51:41] plus throw in expansion and you have the last living beings on a planet orbiting a red dwarf looking at a completely empty sky [21:52:02] the civilization of course is a lot more fragile [21:52:02] the electrical grid going out, and international trade ceasing would do a pretty goos job [21:52:15] good* [21:52:20] lots of things other than asteroids could wipe us out [21:52:26] run away greenhouse affect for one [21:52:30] transitbiker: even if 99.999 % of mankind die [21:52:39] justin bieber for one phew [21:53:01] the laundry pod challenge going global? [21:53:08] there's also the fact that disease could diminish our numbers to the point that we die out, at one point in history there were as many as 4 or 5 different cousin species to humans, none of the others made it [21:53:17] the survivors would be more people than have lived for a very ling time [21:53:39] if 99.9% of the population died there's a very good chance the remaining 0.1% die out in a few generations [21:53:47] still cannot believe people are so stupid to put on of those things in their mouth [21:54:20] we,, there was that one ice age where our species dwindled to less than 10,000 individuals [21:54:26] well* [21:55:18] you mean the one that killed most of our cousin species off? [21:55:31] granted humans did some of the killing [21:55:41] i believe genealogists call it "the big squeeze" where the population dropped suddenly before rebounding [21:55:52] madmerlyn: survival doesn't decide who's right, it only decide who's left [21:55:54] let us just be happy that we live right now in the most peaceful of all times and belong probably to the global top 1% intellectually [21:56:14] EricPoehlsen: top 1% of all who ever lived ever? [21:56:25] no right now ... [21:56:36] https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2012/10/22/163397584/how-human-beings-almost-vanished-from-earth-in-70-000-b-c [21:56:52] I doubt I'm anything but above average intellect [21:56:54] statistically if you're a middle class American you're a 1%er compared to the global population [21:57:01] I mean you have a computer and you are well versed in astrophysics and rocket sciecs [21:57:09] sciencs [21:57:09] more people die on earth in a 24 hour period than survived that population decline [21:57:35] I mean, I have a college degree in engineering, but an average human with enough will can get that. [21:57:40] well that typos are not really intellectual - I say it's my timezone - time to get to bed [21:57:50] 1% of the global population = 76M right now, approximately [21:58:02] ve2dmn: nope - you see it biased through your experience [21:58:35] EricPoehlsen: yes. I'm one of the few who almost didn't make it [21:58:41] unfortunatly if you open your eyes and leave your protected academic circles you will see how stupid most people are [21:58:48] odds are you're in the top 1% of education, intelligence itself is a very hard concept to define [21:59:02] EricPoehlsen: I did tech support. I've seen stupid believe me [21:59:17] I'd wager the very nature of the word intelligence suggests that most people are of average capability, but education and knowledge.. those are much more easily measured [21:59:34] and fact is most of the world population doesn't get access to much of either [21:59:37] I'm just not sure what the ratio of intelligent vs stupid is. [21:59:41] more data is needed [21:59:58] well education makes a great deal [22:00:40] the percentage of people who are actually mentally disabled and unable to learn is quiet small [22:00:52] ok, gonna grab a snack [22:00:59] then minecraft livestream [22:01:01] EricPoehlsen: what i found doing tech supoprt is that most people lack troubleshooting skill. [22:01:03] and even many of those can come quiet far with the right teaching [22:01:16] there's also a massive cultural difference between the ancient ancestors who survived a mass extinction and modern man [22:01:18] like, problem solving in general [22:01:22] yes we have more knowledge, technology etc. [22:01:28] but we are also mostly complacent [22:01:29] yes - problem solving and finding solutions for yourself [22:01:42] yes, back then the natural world caused almost all of our woes, now it's us causing the problems [22:01:47] the important trait is curiosity [22:01:57] if our population was reduced to small pockets of a few thousand globally.. we'd likely die out in 2 generations [22:01:58] I blame education for that one, but I don't blame the educators [22:02:09] madmerlyn: I doubt that [22:02:23] I don't [22:02:31] the ancients were better suited for survival [22:02:39] it was 100% their focus every day [22:03:22] there aren't enough boyscouts in the world to organize us if a plague wipes out 99.9% of us [22:03:30] if we are subject to 'darwinian situations' again - the ones unsuitable will die faster and the fitter will survive [22:03:36] climate change induced issues would probably mean that for agraculture to work, we'd need to have those population clusters in areas where we could either grow in greenhouses, or possibly even on floating farms at sea [22:03:45] and there are still enough farmers and more who will survive [22:04:14] bbl [22:04:31] TL-DR: life is fragile, so get along with each other and make the most of each day [22:04:33] you're looking at this like a 99.9% reduction in population is only going to affect large population centers [22:04:35] bbl [22:04:53] nope it is affecting everything [22:05:22] but the surviving will disperse and regroup in small societies [22:05:35] that's a big assumption [22:05:48] that is human pack behaviour [22:06:02] as old as the first settlements [22:06:11] humans also are very combative, small groups are likely to kill each other [22:06:24] again, ancients were 100% focused on survival every day [22:06:27] we are complacent now [22:06:48] if you have to survive you will adapt to survive - or die [22:07:01] which is exactly what I'm saying, 2 generations they die out [22:07:08] so those .1% surviving will have what it takes to survive [22:07:20] based on what? [22:07:23] the human spirit? [22:07:55] nope biology - survival of the fittest and adaptiveness as a individual 'animal' [22:07:59] species go extinct, they have many times before, to think we're somehow special or exempt from that is not being objective [22:08:19] you're assuming humanity is fit enough to survive everything [22:08:28] that's paramount to saying we're the perfect evolution [22:08:42] nope humans are by far not perfect [22:08:57] a civilization ending event is highly likely to result in our extinction, this is a fact [22:09:31] the fact that our ancient ancestors defied the odds and survived the last major climate change event doesn't mean the odds have changed [22:09:59] Humans have come through population bottlenecks of a few thousand individuals [22:10:04] we do have sufficiently more advanced technology, but ultimately I don't think that will matter in one of the many scenarios where civilization collapses [22:10:19] and it does only take several thousand people to keep a stable genetic mix [22:10:25] ancient humans did that Eric, and it was improbable then as it is improbable now [22:11:16] the specific group you mentioned also endured because they had other human cousin-species to interbreed with which helped bolster their genetic diversity [22:11:30] which is why there is neanderthal DNA in our genome [22:12:18] they taught homo sapien sapiens to bury their dead, and provided a little breeding stock to survive what would've assuredly been extinction [22:14:04] As long as the total global human population is above 1.000.000 I do not see it in any danger of going extinct as a species [22:14:44] and with close to 8.000.000.000 living today a lot can die [22:14:46] even if said population is spread thin and no longer has the means to move large distances? [22:15:08] in a deteriorating ecosystem [22:15:31] I did not say deteriorating ecosystem [22:15:41] OK does someone around here understand ksp interstellar [22:15:44] what do you think would cause the collapse of civilization? [22:15:46] particularly its thermal nozzles [22:15:57] 99.9% people aren't going to die from boredom after all [22:16:01] a technological meltdown [22:16:13] I don't even know what that is supposed to mean [22:16:15] or a pandemic [22:16:38] pandemic is probably the most survivable of civilization ending scenarios [22:16:56] madmerlyn: if the internet would go down completly and a solar flare cook our electronics and wipe the data systems [22:17:01] but that's assuming the pandemic doesn't have other ramifications like sterility [22:17:08] socizety woulld collapse [22:17:11] that wouldn't end civilization no [22:17:14] no it wouldn't, lol [22:17:51] I mean millions of teenagers would "what is this I can't even" but civilization would endure and recover [22:18:12] we're complacent beings, we're not the humans on Wall-E [22:18:21] madmerlyn: it would hurt us badly - it will lead to unrest and revolutions - it will disrupt global supply chains [22:18:32] bold and unproven claims [22:19:05] you yourself are testifying to the resiliency of humanity, you think people wouldn't band together and rebuild if a flare killed our energy grid? [22:19:23] the question is how fast we can recover [22:19:27] solar flare at most kills a bunch of vulnerable populations, doesn't end civilization or turn the world into a dystopia [22:19:49] by vulnerable populations I mean elderly and sick [22:20:25] guys [22:20:29] this is #kspofficial [22:20:34] does anyone have any input on my ksp question [22:20:40] sorry ... [22:20:51] we got a little carried away [22:20:55] Phantom to answer your question on KSP-I, no. [22:21:06] so you were asking on the thermal nozzles [22:21:14] and this is a discussion of space, and well.. human civilization which stems from a conversation on space [22:21:14] I have not really used them yet [22:21:21] which is allowed per the rules [22:21:55] but as far as I know they work like the ION engines [22:22:05] Electricity + Fuel > Thrust [22:22:09] maybe someone else knows about the thermal nozzles, but you also have to remember this isn't a Help Desk either [22:22:15] because basically i've found that a 5-metre pebble bed reactor plus a 2.5 metre thermal nozzle is capable of lifting a respectable payload with a TWR of THREE POINT THREE on kerbin [22:22:36] ok [22:22:46] which is utterly insane, that's more TWR than an SRB and with midgame nuclear thrust tech! [22:23:07] they are meant to lift huge things or make interstellar travels possible [22:23:09] well KSP-I is in fact supposed to be highly advanced future tech for going.. interstellar distances [22:23:21] so if you use Kerbal Star Systems [22:23:39] right but the nuclear stuff is meant to ramp up from early game [22:23:40] you do not want to wait 10 hours till your maneuver node is burnt [22:24:05] I still don't follow what exactly your issue is [22:24:06] I have a mid level game and not yet researched in that direction to be honest [22:24:25] madmerlyn, it feels OP as hell and i strongly suspect it's a bug in the maths somewhere, basically [22:24:30] I needed to get my habitation parts first [22:24:35] it's not a bug in the math [22:24:36] unless someone knows that that's really how it's supposed to work [22:25:05] I'd suggest to file an Issue in the KSPI GitHub if you think something is wrong with the part [22:25:16] I mean if you really want to voice concern on that, the proper forum for that would be KSP-I's github/forum thread where the author who actually determines those things could interact on it [22:25:37] but I'm pretty sure that's WAI [22:26:48] I think one limiting factor is the fuel for the reactors [22:26:56] your uranium [22:27:15] because that gets used (in contrast to the stock nuclear reactors) [22:27:44] keep in mind, those engines are not intended to do a jump to the Mun and back [22:27:54] exactly [22:28:02] that's always been my impression of ksp interstellar [22:28:16] Action: madmerlyn scratches head. [22:28:16] especially the early nuclear tech is good but limited to particular niches [22:28:54] so what's so alarming about this discovery is that it absolutely IS possible to jump to the mun and back when you can get 3.3 TWR at launch with >4k delta-v [22:29:14] just double the fuel, you'll still be able to launch easily [22:29:20] is this like tier 3 tech or something? [22:29:38] what is alarming about OP interstellar engine being OP on planetary scale [22:29:54] no! this is the pebble bed fusion reactor i'm talking about here [22:30:08] what tier is it on the tech tree [22:30:11] the second one you get after the solely-for-power molten salt one [22:30:15] I have my KSP not open where on the tech tree is it? [22:30:26] how much science does it cost to unlock [22:30:28] it's a *fusion reactor* which means it's not low tech [22:30:35] no it's fission [22:30:37] i mistyped [22:30:40] you just said fusion [22:30:42] yes [22:30:43] i mistyped [22:30:53] ok, so where on the tech tree is this [22:31:00] and is the thermal nozzle also low tech [22:31:03] is it on the 550 node or on the 300 node? [22:31:41] it's on a 1000 node [22:31:51] then it is not overpowered [22:31:56] that is late-game stuff [22:32:08] it's really not tho [22:32:14] till you get it you have gone at least to Duna/Eve and Jool [22:32:26] it's like a third of the way up the interstellar tech tree [22:32:50] which begins were the stock tech tree has already concluded (more or less) [22:32:54] oh also [22:33:03] you think you shouldn't have good interstellar engines until you're near the end of the tech tree? [22:33:19] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231106102693986314/403311644131983392/8P9PMdz.png [22:33:25] so you can't do the majority of the kerbin star systems content until you're maxed on tech? [22:33:55] ok what really made me think something was up is that almost every other combination of pebble bed reactor + thermal nozzle couldn't get off the ground at all [22:34:00] at best they could limp [22:34:25] WAI [22:34:33] right [22:34:35] than go ahead and report an issue on github so the person behind it can look into it [22:34:44] also I'm not the author of the mod so not really sure what we're going in circles over now [22:35:01] and they can tell yo if it is intended or you found actually a bug [22:35:04] you know OPT has an engine that runs on space magic? [22:35:19] i thought the intended behaviour was 'maybe limp to a launch from kerbin' but then this one odd combination of reactor+nozzle size is an SRB that burns forever [22:36:02] I mean you're going to be doing very long burns to go to another star [22:36:07] also you said like 4k dv, hardly forever [22:36:24] well unfortunatly - as neither of us here currently talking is the author of the mod in question we cannot comment if that is intended [22:36:49] right, tbh i just really hate making forum accounts [22:36:56] TBH the other nozzles are probably "vacuum" nozzles, and you found the one that is intended as a "lifter" nozzle [22:37:07] so i was hoping someone might be familiar with the intended behaviour [22:37:13] I'm fairly confident that is how it is supposed to work [22:37:17] should you have any questions regarding this one https://github.com/EricPoehlsen/Octogon_RapidExplosiveDesintegration I will gladly help :) [22:37:19] 1 percent of the current estimated global population would be 76 million - more than enough as long as a sustainable number of that remaining are breeding pairs [22:37:47] point 1 percent is 76 million, yes [22:38:04] sure [22:38:07] however that assumes there aren't substantial losses after the crisis event [22:38:17] it maaaay actually be a bug with tweakscale [22:38:29] I imagine if 99.9% of the population died to disease, the remaining 76 million would have a hard time keeping everyone fed [22:38:37] i'm saying the stable population afterwards is 76 million [22:39:00] there are no bugs with tweakscale, tweakscale modifies things linearly, which often results in OP stuff [22:39:07] don't tweakscale things if you want them to WAI [22:39:57] I'm saying if civilization ends, the survivors aren't stabilized [22:40:11] feasibly we could decline to 76 M and be fine, sure. [22:40:22] I was at the hardware store the other day and saw oxygen bottles for rather cheap [22:40:28] good for reocketry needs [22:40:29] madmerlyn: in my arguments concerning population loss I also meant - the dead are gone and the surviving did already regroup [22:40:55] madmerlyn, no, there's definitely a tweakscale/interstellar bug going on [22:41:01] and let's be honest, with how things really work, a global pandemic would be stopped by shuttering global and cross-regional travel, basically only those vital to basic functions would be able to travel, no travel would really put a damper, probably long enough to find out the pathology and therefore even more effective dampers [22:41:01] i'm sure of that [22:41:08] again.. don't tweakscale parts if you want them to WAI [22:41:14] that's how tweakscale works [22:41:17] the question is whether it's actually affecting the game [22:41:19] wai? [22:41:24] working as intended [22:41:25] some mods do stange things on tweakscale [22:41:32] also interstellar explicitly tells you to install tweakscale and use it to scale all its parts [22:41:46] so it is in fact reasonable for me to expect it to work as intended [22:41:48] ok then I dunno man, go talk to the guy who maintains it [22:41:58] you've already made up your mind its a bug [22:42:22] right - the IRC channel is not the be-all, end-all source or every issue and question for KSP, but it's a pretty good one [22:42:27] have you checked the forums? [22:42:41] the wiki? [22:42:48] the devnotes? [22:43:41] okay I'm now really out of here - my alarm clock will throw me out of bed in little more than six hours [22:43:46] contacting the developers of mods directly can often yeild some results, though your milage and satisfaction with said results may vary [22:43:50] oh yeah, i've read all the documentation for kspi-e [22:43:50] nite [22:43:53] it's just super spotty [22:44:12] doesn't change the fact that if you're certain it's a bug there's nothing else to be done here [22:44:24] well, if you got the will to do it, you could do the research and fill in the missing bits [22:44:44] i'd have to go sourcediving for a lot of it :p [22:44:53] yes [22:44:54] i HAVE gone sourcediving for bits of it... [22:45:01] good [22:45:18] now imagine being a developer and how much more involved that would be :P [22:45:48] i would contact the developer - they know their animal best [22:46:10] back on the civilization enders though, I don't think a Solar flare is a civilization killer [22:46:52] there would be some upheaval in regions that aren't very stable, but for the most part I think it results in only a small decrease in population lasting maybe a decade [22:46:55] now that the ozone layer is on the way to being fully mended, i have better feelings about that kind of event [22:47:32] solar flares in our boring yellow sun would not be any threat as long as it's still in tis middle phase [22:47:43] once it starts going red, all bests are off [22:47:50] climate change displacing millions creating a refugee crisis, and destabilizing weather patterns and ecosystems for agriculture is a far more likely candidate for civilization ending [22:48:09] we are already experiencing climate change refugee crisis [22:48:20] I wouldn't call it a crisis yet [22:48:34] it's on the news every day here [22:48:41] but the tv only shows the worst [22:48:45] so not a good source [22:48:45] we aren't overburdened by the displaced people to the point where it's negatively affecting civilization as a whole [22:48:53] its not an insurmountable crisis yet [22:49:17] it's an urgent problem, but I don't think calling it a crisis is accurate at this stage [22:49:27] we in our first world dwellings are very shielded from these issues for the most part [22:50:25] thing is rising sea levels have only impacted a very small number of people, there's also suggestion that the seabed is sinking under the increased weight of the water [22:50:36] you have incredibly population dense countries losing coastline and coastal cities are slowly becoming not a great place to live unless some kind of sea level rise mitigation measures are being undertaken [22:50:45] which if that's the case the problem becomes a faultline one instead of a shoreline one [22:51:12] those countries do not have high value economies, so they often do not have the resources to defend their coastlines [22:51:34] again, we're talking about very low population island nations for the most part [22:51:52] and while their story is a sad one, it's small potatoes compared to what will come next [22:52:08] i'd say we are on or near the cusp of a global shift in economy and mapping of population distribution [22:52:46] if the seabed is sinking we might not see a refugee situation until we see increases in tectonic activity as a result [22:53:15] which is absolutely horrifying to think about heh [22:53:25] economies rely on stable transport and financial transactions, how does that play with port cities needing to rebuild or move entirely to remain viable? [22:53:50] because most of the stable economies aren't relying on ships making port of call in islands [22:54:02] looking at the stock KSPI timberwind these numbers might actually be working as intended [22:54:06] river ports will be the next big thing, because they will be less vulnerable to storm surges and over-all sea level rise [22:54:09] which appeals to my inner lazy bastard [22:54:09] islands? [22:54:17] what is hong kong? [22:54:30] what is singapore? [22:54:42] 2 very wealthy cities that have resources to keep their docks functioning? [22:55:24] baltimore, cape canaveral, new orelans, capetown, perth, sidney, cairo, [22:55:55] none of those places are poor or have sustained any losses in port traffic due to rising sea levels [22:56:00] anyway time to go [22:56:05] they may as well wall off the medditeranian sea (spelling?) [22:56:14] heh [22:57:13] when you avail yourself of all the facts, you'll start to realize that we are in a pickle, a global pickle, that's alls i'm sayin ;) [22:57:29] minecraft livestream in a few minutes [23:37:48] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+v RyanKnack' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net