[00:08:02] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o UmbralRaptor' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [00:47:13] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o Dman979' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [02:15:20] I uCOMPLETELY revamped the folder structure of my personal directory earlier...will KSP scream at me for being in a different folder? [02:15:59] Maybe. [02:16:02] Maybe not. [02:17:42] uncompletely revamped? [02:22:13] Sons and daughters of Kerbin: To prevent causality violations, all attempts at FTL communication will result angry swarms of scarab beetles. [02:23:06] I also can't believe I didn't mention this the other day: The Culture is being made into television! https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/consider-phlebas-tv-series-works-at-amazon-1086840 [02:25:39] Angry scarabs& FTL& Necrons? [02:27:23] UmbralRaptor: Unfortunately, I am legally barred from making overt homages to Necrons with my causality violation enforcement. The reason scarab beetles were chosen was because Nicolas Cage already used up all the angry bees. [02:28:01] hah [02:30:18] "Not the bees. No. Not the bees. The bees, no!" - St. Cage ca. 2000-2005 [02:30:43] There were a lot of scarab beetles unemployed after the first two Fraser Mummy films. [02:31:20] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVCrmXW6-Pk [02:31:21] YouTube - Not the Bees - Nic Cage in The Wicker Man [02:32:29] Action: Scolar_Visari ponders life's ultimate question. More Stellaris, or What We Do in the Shadows? [02:33:58] Scolar_Visari: EU4 instead [02:34:21] Psht, it does not have planet killing weapons! [02:36:16] Action: Scolar_Visari ponders making 18th Century Europe into a Stellaris mod complete with the British Stellar Commonwealth, the Holy Romulan Empire and the Galactic Duchy of Poland-Lithuania [02:38:35] The War of Stellar Succession would result in Gibraltar being annihilated and the installation of the Bollide dynasty on the throne. [02:39:25] Bolide dynasty& Rockefellers! [02:40:04] https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/QpqcDTh2/image.png [02:40:12] Scolar_Visari: but you can do this [02:40:31] Kosmonaut: Psht, I do that in Empire Total War all the time! Take THAT Russia! [02:40:48] I got your Teutonic Crusades right here, Prussia! [02:41:16] Russia doesn't exist just yet. Though the Muscovites are well on their way [02:41:21] Action: Scolar_Visari glares at Northumberland. [02:42:10] Hehe [02:42:18] I may have forced England to do that [02:42:57] In that universe, they have Britainization instead of Balkanization. [02:43:54] Unfortunately, my campaign against Aragon didn't go well. I was going to take some land from them, then pretty much half the HRE declared war on me, on account of King Charles being excommunicated [02:44:48] Meanwhile, the Ottoman Turks bring coffee to Europe. [02:45:29] Scolar_Visari: the Ottomans are my friend, after that war with Austria, I decided I needed some friends [02:46:22] The Turkish Delights MUST flow. [02:46:58] Also: https://snag.gy/83hva6.jpg [02:47:48] I've . . . Never had a pre-sapient species on the same planet as an existing primitive civilization, let alone EARTH. Which begs the question: Are bears the next step in mammalian evolution? [02:48:59] Scolar_Visari: you started with that? [02:51:06] ve2dmn: Yes. I actually made a mod that allows me to optionally spawn with Earth as a neighboring system (much as Earth spawns next to Alpha Centauri, Barnard's Star and Sirius in vanilla), but I've never seen *this*. [02:51:17] Scolar_Visari: that's not begging the question :P [02:51:46] taniwha: I, for one, welcome our ursine partners in sentience. [02:51:53] (note, while I've read it several times, I've never quite understood just what "begging the question" is, but I know what it's not) [02:52:31] Just imagine a person in rags BEGGING for an answer. [02:52:40] Oh wait, that's still not right. [02:53:41] it's a mistranslation of a logical fallacy [02:53:56] A better translation would have been "assume the conclusion" [02:54:00] Scolar_Visari: what you did was raise the question :) [02:54:22] Scolar_Visari ^ The new version is soooo slooow now, granted i've not moved on from hyperlane [02:54:30] Oh no, I didn't raise it. I was literally begging. [02:54:42] https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/beg-the-question [02:55:08] Epi: it's always been slow :P [02:55:15] Epi: I didn't think I would like the change, but it's grown on me enormously. I hated the rapid expansion issues of previous versions, though you still have to identify potential bottlenecks for AI. [02:55:50] Though building too many outposts still drains influence and heavily impairs unity and research point gains. [02:56:46] On the other hand, colonization ship prices have been reduced back to 300. [02:57:24] the gaia world start is interesting [02:58:31] Epi: Indeed, especially since I lucked out on mineral tiles with my own! [02:59:07] Action: Scolar_Visari considers doing a fanatic xenophile Gaia world start with the intent of attracting alien immigrants/refugees and using them to colonize other worlds. [02:59:35] Scolar_Visari: or droids like I'm trying to do [03:00:03] Teehee https://i.redd.it/lhn0l0f5zqh01.png [03:00:15] I like to think charismatic is a good pick now, I can cut off the AI, and still be their besti [03:00:38] Scolar_Visari: 'I am your god meow' [03:00:40] ve2dmn: Fanatic Servitors are good fun! Especially when you're herding sentients into habitats and ringworlds for thier own protection. [03:01:44] Humans require Ice Cream [03:02:55] We'll digistruct ice cream for their enjoyment in any flavor their squishy processors can conceive. [03:04:07] I seem to think 2.0 has also given me a significant performance boost. [03:05:05] Scolar_Visari: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4IFNKYmLa8 [03:05:05] YouTube - Halo Top - Eat the Ice Cream [03:07:30] Action: Scolar_Visari steps back and blinks in horror. [03:07:35] ^ that is a real TV ad [03:08:55] ve2dmn: And I thought the Canadian PSA on workplace safety was terrifying. [03:09:56] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noFCekWiUGE [03:09:56] YouTube - prevent-it.ca [03:10:47] never look up the Quebec accident ads... [03:12:20] Honestly, however, the Germans are about the most amusing when it comes to workplace safety https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oB6DN5dYWo [03:12:20] YouTube - Forklift Driver Klaus English Subtitles [03:21:04] They need a Kerbalized version of this. [03:35:25] Hrm . . . Vampire flatmates it is. [03:38:49] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6BtxmVUwT8 [03:38:49] YouTube - Amazon's Alexa has a glitch [08:15:36] what do scientists do with the stars? [08:20:19] they used to boost science but the they do something else now, and the description is not really helpful [08:20:39] now that bob is back he is 3 stars [08:20:52] i could still send him to eve [08:21:38] not land of course, but to orbit [08:22:09] but 2 probes are already underway [08:22:39] one may even come back if i do it correctly, although it was designed to land [08:31:17] Hyperbolic intercepts ftw :) http://taniwha.org/~bill/screenshot4237.png [08:31:47] what else? [08:32:09] i even go to minmus on an escape trajectory out of kerbin, because of the reduction in time [08:34:44] setting up hyperbolic intercepts takes some fiddling [08:54:49] testing EL's new part: http://taniwha.org/~bill/screenshot4238.png [08:55:12] so far, working quite well (the spherical tank was built on-site using one of those explosive pads) [08:55:46] btw the mission builder thing to be released in march... will have possibility to launch from other bodies than kerbin [08:56:22] Yeah, though I believe there will be some catches [08:56:31] probably works only for missions [08:56:46] but probably adds some moddability to the game [08:57:05] because so far eve and duna starting mods were hacks, done by renaming kerbin [08:57:42] yeah [08:58:12] or maybe not, because it will provide a launchpad, not the whole space center [09:03:28] have to sleep a bit [09:03:54] that was a little close for comfort: http://taniwha.org/~bill/screenshot4239.png [10:00:30] https://twitter.com/Teslarati/status/967107714743648256 it's really impressive how huge those things are [10:00:31] SpaceXs recovered fairing spotted sailing into port on Mr. Steven - https://t.co/r64KYSQAo7 https://t.co/2ivCZgfrN1 [10:00:43] and that it's not just a cover [10:01:01] but, where's the second half? ;) [11:26:42] I go acrylic paint [11:26:50] not sure it's the right one however [11:29:23] woooo [11:34:39] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+vov nasonfish DuoDex RyanKnack' by catastrophe.esper.net [11:36:47] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o UmbralRaptor ' by catastrophe.esper.net [11:36:47] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o NBones ' by catastrophe.esper.net [11:36:59] "catastrophe" [11:37:02] is it that bad? [11:47:06] well, it's a phe full of star cats, so probably [12:21:38] http://taniwha.org/~bill/screenshot4240.png [12:28:54] inflatable parts. ceo of bigelow must be drooling over these pictures [12:29:37] heh [12:30:02] let's hope we see thati nflatable space station soon [12:30:59] well, now that SpaceX has a nice heavy launcher, we might [12:32:17] if ticket prices go down maybe even i can afford a few days in space before i die [12:35:18] or if they really go down, a trip around the moon [13:44:04] Inflatable station: The International Space Bouncy Castle [13:54:24] shard space bouncy castle ;) [13:55:42] random thought - what do bouncy castle, mosque and hindu temple have in common? [14:00:04] I know [14:00:16] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/186186946362474496/416957356828524554/DSC_8454.JPG [14:02:16] sandbox, so? [14:03:11] Gasher[home], you have to take off your shoes [14:05:11] correct! [14:09:50] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o Technicalfool' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [14:20:59] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/186186946362474496/416962693522653184/DSC_8455.JPG [14:27:17] Mat2ch [14:34:08] this will take forever without afterburners [14:34:57] i guess i could use them then land at baikonur or whatever the kerbal version is called [15:03:54] Fluburtur: you still need to clean your workshop. [15:03:56] :D [15:03:58] Looks great :) [15:04:04] heh thanks [15:04:10] I made a mess to paint it actually [15:04:17] will finish the yellow then do the red [15:04:25] then do the details with the airbrush [15:04:32] I see a tetrapak of apple juice on the floor! Explain! ;) [15:04:44] is full of water [15:04:48] for weight and stuff [15:05:23] right answer :) [15:05:58] also I will need to sand all the fiber tape so paint sticks to it [15:06:24] wouldn't that weaken it? [15:06:34] nah [15:06:45] just scratch it a bit so it sticks [15:06:55] won't remove the tape [15:07:14] if that doesn't help try some primer [15:07:28] don't want to make it too heavy [15:07:42] well actually I wanted to add some weight to see if it flies better [15:07:51] maybe mixing the actual color with primer could be an option [15:08:01] eh [15:08:09] acrylic sticks very well on foam [15:08:20] true. But badly to tape. Been there, done that :D [15:08:37] That's why I painted my models before sticking tapes to them :) [15:08:46] I have sanded that tape to glue stuff on it before and it went fine [15:08:53] *tape on them [15:09:18] let me know if it worked :) [15:15:23] lol and i can't seem to set an engine on fire rip [16:00:45] wait wut [16:00:54] there's a relay right there [16:00:59] how am i not connected to it [16:28:10] this is unrelated to anything but I have, by accident, reprogrammed my brain to replace the word 'elevator' with 'electric staircase' [16:30:35] Why not escalator? o_O [16:31:08] because typos [16:31:28] hehe, like kasuga ayumu (osaka) [16:32:34] hello [16:32:48] am I weird because I'm crying right now because of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ9WiuJPnNA [16:32:48] YouTube - Sesame Street: Feist sings 1,2,3,4 [16:35:47] i was going to watch EnterElysium play Stellaris: Apocalypse but somehow I ended up on this weird tangent and apparently lots of famous singers guest star on Sesame Street [16:43:18] okay now it's time for stellaris [16:44:11] Well I'd cry too if I could only count to banana. [16:46:09] Sons and daughters of Kerbin: This comment has been brought to you by weakly interacting messaging protocols! [16:46:45] hehe [16:46:52] wimps and machos [16:47:26] Well, as we all know, Mirc Active CHatting Operating Systems were disproven. [16:48:21] I prefer Non-Agressive CHosen Operating Systems, just saying [16:48:26] Speaking of WIMPy MACHOs . . . "First Dark Matter, then Dark Energy, now Dark Particles. Remember the days when science would develop theories based on facts and not make up new unseen and unproven things to explain discrepancies? I love science, but I fear that it is headed down a Dark Slippery Slope." [16:48:43] Action: Scolar_Visari notes, "I love science" performs the same function as, "Bless their heart". [16:49:44] I like CHEESy NACHOs [16:50:57] Draconiator: I dare say, good sir/madam, eating brown dwarfs with cheese is barbarous! The only CORRECT way to eat them is with BoseEinstein condensate! [16:53:21] Action: Scolar_Visari ponders if the people approaching dark matter with pseudoskepticism are also the same people that would've railed against neutrinos before their observation. [16:56:00] "The universe does not need some mysterious "dark matter" to explain its expansion. A simple radiometer toy shows how the force of sunlight can push things in a vacuum." [16:56:13] Check mate, inflationists. [16:56:42] We need a healty dose of skepticism, but when the equations do not balance, you need to come up with... somthing [16:57:25] Right now dark matter and dark energy sounds like crappy cope-out, but we don't have any better explanations [16:57:51] ve2dmn: It's not so much skepticism as much as it is they haven't put forth more than thirty seconds of effort into understanding what they're attempting to criticize. [16:59:06] the radiometer actually rotates in the opposite direction because of reasons [16:59:23] Though the particular term 'dark matter' is a decent enough place holder more than an explanation in and of itself. [16:59:31] Althego: Magic, of course. [16:59:31] so it is not showing the loght pressure [16:59:44] Scolar_Visari: same with everyone over everything. Armchair expert in every fields [17:00:52] ve2dmn: They're not armchair experts . . . They haven't even gotten out of bed! [17:01:05] hehe [17:01:25] are we talking about flat earthers? [17:01:51] Hrm, there may be a big overlap here. [17:03:03] Complex truth vs simple lie [17:05:31] I'm not saying it's complex, I'm simply saying it was aliens. [17:05:41] hehe [17:05:56] everybody pictures the aliens guy holding his hands in the ftront [17:08:04] "Science doesn't know everything" [17:08:22] Though I suppose aliens would be the rule to the exception of simple lies. After all, building grandiose tombs to show off one's, er, pharaonic virility, is a lot simpler than, "pyramid power". [17:08:59] what about the huge temples then ? [17:09:29] Scolar_Visari: the simple lie here is : It's hard to build and people didn't have the tech before [17:09:36] Azander: They housed cult statues and served as a sort of bank. [17:10:02] ve2dmn: We must've lost the art of copper tool making and sanding after adopting the wheel. [17:10:29] Civ 5 told me that you never lose anything [17:10:54] Psht, like that Great Wall bonus that disappears after gunpowder!? [17:11:32] pfff, it was a fake bonus to begin with... [17:11:56] Azander: Now that I think about it, it's important to remember that Egyptian, Greek and Roman temples only served as places of worship for the cult priests. [17:12:10] ahhhh, ok [17:12:46] They were meant to impress from the outside, and entrance was often forbidden to anyone other than cult members. Communal worship (such as festivals) was an outdoor activity. [17:13:37] Also a good excuse to get falling down drunk and eat red meat. [17:14:10] and not have to 'work' for the day [17:14:43] Action: Scolar_Visari notes the Romans and Greeks typically gave the gods the parts of animals that humans would find inedible. [17:15:07] "Alright, Zeus gets the bones and here's a steak for my fellow Athenians!" [17:17:30] The Kerbals conduct their sacrfices underneath the roaring engines of launching rockets. [17:19:11] what is the god of rocketry called? [17:19:33] Kermin [17:19:55] Tsiolkovsky Magnus [17:20:14] Loreum Ipsum Dolor Rocketus [17:21:43] hehe tsiolkovsky [17:22:52] hah curiosity's drill is working again [17:23:03] what could they have done remotely to fix it? [17:23:29] Sought the Machine God's blessing, of course. [17:23:32] warmed it up, rotated the gears back and forth to free them, fix the program that controls it... [17:23:47] it took them a year [17:24:18] Time moves slowly for Solar powered rovers on other worlds. [17:24:30] not solar powered :) [17:25:25] Althego: Where do you think that Pu-238 came from? [17:25:45] FROM COLLIDING DEAD STARS, THAT'S WHERE. [17:25:51] ultimately every hevier element comes from stars [17:26:50] Supernovy made PU-238 in his spare time... when he was done with all the hydrogen fusion [17:27:51] ve2dmn: Psht, supernovae are insufficient. You must take two neutron stars and collide them. [17:30:03] In fact, there's a good argument that anything with an atomic number higher than lead could only be created naturally via neutron star nucleosynthesis. [17:30:49] then I don't understand how come there is so much of it [17:31:25] There isn't that much relative to other things. [17:33:15] Most baryonic matter in the universe *is* hydrogen and helium. [17:34:01] then I guess I underestimate the mass of stars and the number of collision there was in the past [17:34:06] Plutonium-238 being vanishingly rare on Earth because it's not actually natural! [17:34:28] it's in the ground, therefore it's natural :P [17:34:55] There's also that matter of a lot of heavy elements on Earth being concentrated via hydrological and geological phenomenon. [17:35:27] Is there any way to lower the intensity of commlines? They're getting a BIT too much. https://i.gyazo.com/3e535aab9a09ff8b841b2f640c182025.png [17:40:06] Action: Scolar_Visari ponders colliding neutron stars intentionally for more massive elements. [17:41:16] they decay way rapidly [17:41:27] maybe except for the island of stability [17:50:49] Action: Scolar_Visari goes off to create an island of stability with half-protons. [17:55:18] how do you make a half proton [17:59:16] Carefully. [18:31:49] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231106102693986314/417024146573361152/28378401_1693975454020877_1853666372056621680_n.png [18:57:54] maybe with a 1000 degree knife? [20:04:21] hmm... robotic spaceplanes.... sometimes wondered if smaller size would help with things [20:26:04] :C ?0@=8 [20:26:54] BCB :B>=81CBL 5ABL [20:27:03] yes [20:27:22] Kerbal Space Program =5 :B> =5 3>=O5B [20:27:27] B>;L:> G0B BCB 2A5-B0:8 ?>-0=3;89A:8 [20:28:10] >= 4>2>;L=> B8E89 A59G0A [20:28:11] 0 ?> @CAA:8 345 5ABL [20:28:13] E7 [20:28:35] =0 D>@C<5 2@>45 @CAA:0O A5:F8O 5ABL [20:28:40] C <5=O E@><05B 8=O7 [20:28:50] ?@>25@L D>@C< [20:28:57] lol.... [20:29:03] AAK;L 5A;8 <>=0 [20:29:04] was heading off anyways.. [20:29:20] https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/ [20:29:47] https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/forum/91-russian-%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9/ [20:30:21] thats dumb lol [20:30:25] my ksp stopped working [20:30:26] 4>E;K9 >= <0;>ABL nikzer [20:30:27] so i closed it [20:30:34] and then right before it closed it's like "sup bro" [20:30:43] no hablo russian [20:31:48] kevlarballoons, was explaining how to find russian section of forum to some guy [20:32:52] nikzer, 0 2 AB8<5 =5 A<>B@5;? O =5 8=B5@5A>20;AO, =>B B0< B>65 <>65B 1KBL :0:>5-=81C4L :> >48= 5ABL B8E89 [20:33:44] B>340 =8G5< 1>;LH5 =5 <>3C ?><>GL - O ?> >18B0N B>;L:> BCB [20:33:49] * ! [20:34:11] >: ?>=O; [20:34:20] ok nohan [20:34:36] ?>=O; [20:35:32] nikzer_, CG8 8=3;8H ))) [20:36:22] ok lol [20:36:30] so kerbal alarm clock is crashing every time i go to map [20:36:33] thats great lol [20:37:17] well at least you figured out what is happening [20:37:35] i had a physics glitch with phys range extension mod [20:37:38] nvm now it works [20:38:11] i used that for BDArmory but with captured asteroids it got me kraken forces lol [20:38:56] 0 GQ ?> @C ?8H8B5AL [20:39:00] ??? [20:39:08] 2 A 2 A< GB> ?> @CAA:> O =5 ?>=O; 2 G5< 2>?@>A-B>? =C O 3>2>@N ?>-@CAA:8 8 2AQ 2@>45 [20:42:40] < 0H5@ [3;02=0O] > B>;L:> G0B BCB 2A5-B0:8 ?>-0=3;89A:8 [20:42:46] O 2>B 70 AB> [20:43:04] GB> [20:43:11] 1I0OAL BCB ?>-@CAA:8 [20:45:40] nikzer, =C B515 ?@>AB> ?>257;> GB> O A<>B@5; 2 G0B 2 MB>B <><5=B. / BCB G0AB> A86C, 8 =5A<>B@O =0 B>, GB> O A0< - @CAA:89, >1I0NAL O ?>-0=3;89A:8 [20:46:08] ?>=OB=> [20:47:31] I agree. [20:47:49] ? [20:48:09] is there a way to get a rendezvous in one orbit? [20:48:12] when do you launch? [20:48:25] Gasher[home]: that wasn't meant seriously, because most of us don't understand Russian :) [20:48:44] kevlarballoons: is it a equatorial orbit? [20:48:49] *an [20:48:57] kevlarballoons, hmm, i think it is possible - you should launch when the target is right above you i think (or maybe on the horizon, rising) [20:49:02] yea [20:49:11] if you launch when it's above you you'll miss [20:49:18] it'll be ahead [20:49:22] hm [20:49:24] yes, it's faster than you [20:49:37] I think a quarter rotation before you could work [20:49:38] ok, then try when it is just showing up on horizon [20:49:46] yeah, experiment [20:50:11] there should be rule of thumb, but maybe it will be you who will figure taht out [20:52:04] well i missed [20:52:09] so now i have to get over to my station [20:53:16] kevlarballoons, i'd suggest to get the station to a higher orbit :) [20:54:54] my station is at 400k [20:55:05] i'm rendezvousing with a kerbal [20:55:44] lol i just realized docking is gonna be hard [20:55:56] i put my rcs for just a capsule [20:56:06] switch to kerbal and control him/her? [20:56:10] [ ] for that [20:56:15] talking about the station [20:56:21] i know about the kerbal [20:56:29] im getting 2 kerbals [20:56:32] but one is at the mun [20:56:37] heh [20:56:53] so i gotta fuel up 1st [20:57:05] anyone else listening to real music [20:57:28] africa on mario paint composer [21:00:15] anyone know what the specific impulse of a kerbal evapack is [21:05:47] kevlarballoons, " have a �v of 600 m/s RCS fuel " [21:06:32] dammit i can't do it [21:06:43] i have to waste yet another rocket to get the mun guy [21:07:31] "your rescue mission now requires a rescue mission" [21:09:38] no i can make it back to kerbin [21:09:44] but i couldnt dock [21:10:31] di- [21:10:34] did i not bring a parachute [21:10:38] ok i'm cheating [21:10:50] last quicksave was right before re-entry so [21:13:15] and i cant revert [21:19:21] Sons and daughters of Kerbin: Would it not be easier to simply start in orbit? [21:20:15] Exciting paper from Altair et al., "Microbial habitability of Europa sustained by radioactive sources" Scientific Reports 2018 (albeit published last month) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-18470-z [21:21:19] In Summary: Sunlight? We don't need no stinking Sunlight! [21:23:35] From the article: "Our model for Europa can provide more energy than necessary to sustain the modeled microbial life even only by the gamma decay of 40K, since its abundance can be 10 times (or more) greater than that found in Earths oceans. This result makes Europa a propitious place for the development of an ecosystem that sustains forms of life such as the sulfate-reducing bacteria Candidatus Desulforudis audaxvi [21:24:06] In the grim darkness of Europa's seas, there is only gamma decay. [21:28:13] Action: Scolar_Visari ponders why Steam's workshop is borked today. [21:30:30] ;tell UmbralRaptor Given the recent support of a porous interior for Enceladus, would this paper's conclusions still apply? https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-18470-z [21:30:30] Scolar_Visari: I'll let UmbralRaptor know when I see them [21:32:51] Hrm, then again, the paper describing porousity also has it persisting on Enceladus for billions of years. [21:33:04] blink [21:34:17] so that's just a paper on energy and doesn't address nutrient distribution, yes? [21:35:02] Iskierka: Er, nutrient creation is the whole paper. [21:36:44] Sulfates being used on Earth for chemosynthesis, and the paper discusses how they can be created within Europa's interior. [21:36:57] Ah, liquid water layer, not porous. [21:38:05] https://www.nature.com/news/exoplanet-hunters-rethink-search-for-alien-life-1.23023 contrary research suggests that nutrients would deposit and not be available to life without a solid & exposed surface to be rained on [21:38:36] need erosion mechanisms [21:40:33] Iskierka: I'm not entirely sure that actually has any relevance for Europan worlds, as the authors of the linked paper seem to be clearly focused on water worlds within the habitable zone. [21:42:42] the problems they encounter would still be relevant, as life certainly would still need factors like nutrient availability. I asked that before checking the newer article, though, was just raising the question of whether it's fully considered [21:44:41] The evolution of Europa would be a lot different, and it's also possible that radiolysis may be sufficient as was mentioned for the prototypical Earth ecosystem. [21:46:58] "Other work concludes that a planet swamped in even deeper water would be geologically dead, lacking any of the planetary processes that nurture life on Earth." would not be quite relevant to Europa, either. [21:48:01] When I first found this article via an author of one of the papers I did ask her about that and she did explain that it's not comparable there, yes, hence that's not the point I raised [21:51:31] Linked it to her 'cause I'm curious what her reaction is [21:51:53] #KSPOfficial: mode change '+o Supernovy' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.esper.net [21:52:03] Evening, Gentlemen. [21:54:18] Evening Supernovy [21:54:22] Was this simply at a conference? Because I'm not finding an actual paper on the particular subject as it pertains to ocean exoplanets. That would be irritating, too, since it's now thought ocean worlds dominate the habitable zone. [21:54:52] Ohhhhh.....Bother! Hit the abort button and sent my capsule flying off. Rescue mission! [21:55:24] These papers came from a Habitable Worlds thing a few months ago; most weren't formally published at that time, not sure if her paper in particular has published yet (though likely will). Didn't find it in a cursory search of her twitter [21:55:51] Here we go https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/habitableworlds2017/pdf/4109.pdf [21:56:58] Yeah, that's the one where I know one of the authors. T.M.Fisher in particular [21:58:08] Action: Scolar_Visari ponders an ecosystem built on high efficiency phosphourous conservation [21:59:09] granted, yeah, it's conclusion isn't *necessarily* that life is impossible, just that life with signatures we'd recognise is likely impossible. Further qualifications depend on the viabilities of alternate lifes [21:59:33] can only speculate with a sample size of 1 [21:59:47] "I recall my Master's adviser discussing similar ideas years ago" [21:59:47] "they just did a better job of much better job of quantifying it then he did, though" [22:00:12] Amusingly, I found an article referencing the article dishonestly titled: "Planets-oceans are not suitable for the search for life". [22:00:50] swap the hyphenation around and fix the pluralisation and it's almost what was intended [22:01:01] oceans are still very good for life searching. Oceans, *plural* [22:02:24] That'd still be incorrect, the authors noting, " these preliminary results suggest it might be difficult or impossible to detect an aqua planet biosphere from Earth at our current level of technology." [22:03:20] Then again, I don't think earth-chronicles.com is a bastion of reputable journalism given that they have a supernatural news tab. [22:03:52] Well, the point I meant was more if a planet has *multiple* oceans, and therefore isn't one of these aqua planets as it has land, it's still a good target. It doesn't fill the criteria the paper studied and will have high phosphorus availability, and therefore can show the biosignature compounds we'd likely look for [22:04:25] so "Planets-oceans" or "Planet-oceans" are wrong, but "Ocean-planets" is closeish to the conclusion [22:05:21] Heh, but what if they aren't DNA based!? [22:06:04] well that's probably what citation [3] is for, needed for more than just DNA [22:06:13] (I presume, haven't read it yet) [22:06:56] There's actually some work that has arsenic as a substitute for phosphates in DNA. [22:07:43] Would arsenic be non-toxic to such life? [22:08:09] Wait, the substitution worked? [22:08:32] I thought that study had, uh, issues. [22:10:00] UmbralRaptor: Before there was a false confirmation of arsenic using bacteria, there was a paper discussing the *potential* for arsenic in primitive organisms. Made all the more amusing because the same authors wrote both! [22:10:52] Wolfe-Simon, Davies & Anbar, "Did Nature Also Choose Arsenic?" International Journal of Astrobiology 2009 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/36789205_Did_nature_also_choose_arsenic [22:11:30] ah [22:16:05] Clearly this means we need to start an abiogenesis simulator. [22:16:21] didn't they already do that and everyone was terrified of the apparatus? [22:16:38] (or at least early-stages simulator that produced amino acids) [22:16:59] Psht, amino acids probably come from space. [22:17:39] I mean, we now know, probably true. But IIRC that experiment did successfully produce amino acids from just pressure, heat, lightning, and a load of goop that lacked amino acids [22:18:13] anyone know if there is a proper fix for Mac OSX High Sierra? [22:18:59] I don't think it's just *one* experiment. There was a least one that did make amino acids in a simulated deep space environment. [22:20:01] possibly there have been successful reproductions since. I'm thinking of probably the earliest, like 50s-60s, when safety standards didn't particularly exist to complain about the crazy apparatus with pressurised lightning in a jar [22:20:42] Yeah, the MillerUrey experiment. That's an old one. [22:20:46] I suggest consulting a demonologist? (10.13 broke lots of things, eg: astroimageJ) [22:20:52] http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1999M%26PS...34..909P [22:21:09] ^amino acids can be delivered via comets [22:21:09] And we know c-type asteroids can contain amino acids. [22:21:30] Asteroids > comets. [22:24:05] In fact, the best evidence for amino acids in meteors comes from a meteorite that was observed during reentry! [22:24:31]